Finally

[Gerald Boggs]

It's possible I misremember, but I'm sticking with the story. We trained a lot and the remedial training for someone failing to meet the standard was mighty motivation. We were also programmed to look upon failure as weakness and to be held in contempt. Going Airborne and being in the 82nd was a commitment to be more then just a soldier. The standards that officers were held were even higher. We had a new lieutenant fall out of his first battalion run. He never made it back to the barracks and was never seen again nor was his name ever mentioned, it was as if he had never existed.

The jump sucked, but it makes for a good story in my older years.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Agreed you get strong with squats, but I can see why they are required to run with a ruck as part of consistent training, because things can and do break down and that means that troops will be called on to do the extraordinary at some point and therefore it’s surely best that they have some confidence they can run if they are called upon to do so.

That’s why I said I’m not advocating rucking as being the majority of the training, but it seems to me at least, that some time is spent on a regular basis doing so.

Do you seriously believe that a 25-year-old soldier who squats 405 and deadlifts 495 cannot run if he doesn't waste a bunch of otherwise productive training time running? How do people arrive at such conclusions? Answer: they've never actually done it themselves.

[Nockian]

Do you seriously believe that a 25-year-old soldier who squats 405 and deadlifts 495 cannot run if he doesn't waste a bunch of otherwise productive training time running? How do people arrive at such conclusions? Answer: they've never actually done it themselves.

That’s a straw man. So, let me offer my own straw man. So you are saying that they don’t need to ruck distance as part of their training ?

[Mark Rippetoe]

About twice a year would be sufficient, if the soldier is strong enough. Now, answer my question. Have you, as a 25-year-old strong man, had trouble running 5 miles, having not run 5 miles for several months?

[James Rodgers]

Agreed you get strong with squats, but I can see why they are required to run with a ruck as part of consistent training, because things can and do break down and that means that troops will be called on to do the extraordinary at some point and therefore it’s surely best that they have some confidence they can run if they are called upon to do so.

That’s why I said I’m not advocating rucking as being the majority of the training, but it seems to me at least, that some time is spent on a regular basis doing so.

The ruckmarch is an inefficient training method because it does a piss poor job of making troops stronger or faster while producing lower body and back injuries at a high rate. The only benefit of it that I can see is that it makes feet tougher. The thing is, is that they actually do not need to walk that far either.

The vast majority of troops (engineers, mechanics, cooks, gunners, tankers, signallers, clerks, logisticians, and almost all infanteers) are completely useless without their equipment, which is carried around in vehicles. Almost all weaponry that can stop something tougher than a man in pajamas is only man-portable over short distances. A howitzer is not useful without a truck to carry ammo, and the gun detachment members just throw all their stuff in the truck. Getting really strong helps move all that stuff around.

The types of troops that do need to move long distances on foot (and who also comprise a very slim minority of troops) will probably need to be decent at rucking but getting very strong helps with rucking. These types of troops (recce, paras, patrol pathfinders, SOF types) tend to be very, very fit and are also usually passed through some sort of a selection. Since there are so few of them and they're crazy tough, motivated and in shape they can be ignored by the training system. They are not relevant to the average troop who has grown up playing on an iPad eating McDonalds.

So in conclusion, just get the troops strong with the Novice Linear Progression, do some anaerobic conditioning before deploying and things will be fine.

[Nockian]

About twice a year would be sufficient, if the soldier is strong enough. Now, answer my question. Have you, as a 25-year-old strong man, had trouble running 5 miles, having not run 5 miles for several months?

As you said, I’ve never done it. I certainly did have to build up to distance when I started running, but then I wasn’t weight training. However, there is a massive difference to managing a stumbling 5 miles under ideal conditions and rucking over 20 miles of uneven ground in terrible conditions. These soldiers never know what they might be called on to do, so doesn’t it make sense for them to know they can if they have too ? I think I’d want to test that out for myself on a fairly regular basis just so I had the confidence to know I wasn’t going to let down the entire unit.

If you are talking about the average man in the street, absolutely, unquestionably you are right, but then the average man doesn’t have to do what a soldier might reasonably be expected to do-the extraordinary.

The ruckmarch is an inefficient training method because it does a piss poor job of making troops stronger or faster while producing lower body and back injuries at a high rate. The only benefit of it that I can see is that it makes feet tougher. The thing is, is that they actually do not need to walk that far either.

The vast majority of troops (engineers, mechanics, cooks, gunners, tankers, signallers, clerks, logisticians, and almost all infanteers) are completely useless without their equipment, which is carried around in vehicles. Almost all weaponry that can stop something tougher than a man in pajamas is only man-portable over short distances. A howitzer is not useful without a truck to carry ammo, and the gun detachment members just throw all their stuff in the truck. Getting really strong helps move all that stuff around.

The types of troops that do need to move long distances on foot (and who also comprise a very slim minority of troops) will probably need to be decent at rucking but getting very strong helps with rucking. These types of troops (recce, paras, patrol pathfinders, SOF types) tend to be very, very fit and are also usually passed through some sort of a selection. Since there are so few of them and they're crazy tough, motivated and in shape they can be ignored by the training system. They are not relevant to the average troop who has grown up playing on an iPad eating McDonalds.

So in conclusion, just get the troops strong with the Novice Linear Progression, do some anaerobic conditioning before deploying and things will be fine.

Yes I’d agree with all that. I’m thinking of the guys, the elite, who will be expected to do that if there is no option and will have to do it at a drop of a hat. For the others, far less necessary, or even unnecessary.

[James Rodgers]

As you said, I’ve never done it. I certainly did have to build up to distance when I started running, but then I wasn’t weight training. However, there is a massive difference to managing a stumbling 5 miles under ideal conditions and rucking over 20 miles of uneven ground in terrible conditions. These soldiers never know what they might be called on to do, so doesn’t it make sense for them to know they can if they have too ? I think I’d want to test that out for myself on a fairly regular basis just so I had the confidence to know I wasn’t going to let down the entire unit.

If you are talking about the average man in the street, absolutely, unquestionably you are right, but then the average man doesn’t have to do what a soldier might reasonably be expected to do-the extraordinary.

I have some personal experience with this sort of thing. Back when I was in my mid 20s I used to do the Petawawa Ironman every year. It was a military challenge that consisted of:
32km run
4km individual canoe portage
8km individual canoe
6km run
All while wearing combat boots and carrying a 40lb rucksack.
CFB Petawawa Ironman race not for the faint of heart | CTV News

In 2013 I had just finished the course described here: Applying General Adaptation Syndrome to Army Training Design | Capt James Rodgers

I had about six weeks to get ready and the normal way to get prepare was to do tons of distance running and ruckmarching. This was not an option for me because I had open sores on my feet and I wanted my toenails to grow back correctly. I just screwed around with squats, bench presses and deadlifts and got some sort of ok numbers: 315 squat, 185 bench and 365 deadlift. The squat was probably sky-high. The only cardio was hill sprints barefoot on sand dunes because that helped my feet feel better. No distance running or ruckmarching at all.

On race day I came in 19th out of a field of 200+ competitors and took 30 minutes off of my previous best time. This is because the rucksack and canoe were easier to handle because they felt light. If you're strong, ruckmarching is just a nuisance, not a challenge.

[Nockian]

I have some personal experience with this sort of thing. Back when I was in my mid 20s I used to do the Petawawa Ironman every year. It was a military challenge that consisted of:
32km run
4km individual canoe portage
8km individual canoe
6km run
All while wearing combat boots and carrying a 40lb rucksack.
CFB Petawawa Ironman race not for the faint of heart | CTV News

In 2013 I had just finished the course described here: Applying General Adaptation Syndrome to Army Training Design | Capt James Rodgers

I had about six weeks to get ready and the normal way to get prepare was to do tons of distance running and ruckmarching. This was not an option for me because I had open sores on my feet and I wanted my toenails to grow back correctly. I just screwed around with squats, bench presses and deadlifts and got some sort of ok numbers: 315 squat, 185 bench and 365 deadlift. The squat was probably sky-high. The only cardio was hill sprints barefoot on sand dunes because that helped my feet feel better. No distance running or ruckmarching at all.

On race day I came in 19th out of a field of 200+ competitors and took 30 minutes off of my previous best time. This is because the rucksack and canoe were easier to handle because they felt light. If you're strong, ruckmarching is just a nuisance, not a challenge.

If every training area had sand dunes, I would suggest it was possibly an alternative to a ruck March. Certainly Eddy Merckx thought so for cycling. Rather than heavy mileage on hills he used to cycle up sand dunes and do fast sprint pace work with a velo. It was his secret weapon.

[Mark Rippetoe]

If every training area had sand dunes, I would suggest it was possibly an alternative to a ruck March. Certainly Eddy Merckx thought so for cycling. Rather than heavy mileage on hills he used to cycle up sand dunes and do fast sprint pace work with a velo. It was his secret weapon.

He still doesn't understand.

[David Sanders]

He still doesn't understand.

He doesn't, but I do. Getting stronger makes everything else easier. It's so simple. Why does it take so long for some of us to get it?