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Thread: The Only Emphasis Is Strength | Mark Rippetoe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kostas Theodorakis View Post
    Hypertrophy can be much easier to achieve if you're strong....
    Who will be bigger? Someone who pumps his muscles with 80 kg squats or with 160 kgs? Same with every other exercise/"muscle group".
    This is just common sense in my opinion.
    Along the lines of what you are saying, I think Dan John or somebody wrote on T Nation, referring to barbell complexes, that most people weren't strong enough to use them to build mass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R View Post
    Bodybuilding guidance is widely available. Most of it is crap but some of it is quite good.

    [...] the self knowledge and the discrimination to get specialty training help that will be effective in meeting personal goals.
    Yes, there is a ton of bodybuilding advice out there and much of it is crap. That's why it would be nice to have hypertrophy advice from a trusted and tested source like SS--so that a person who is sufficiently far along in training can get that specialty guidance here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Schexnayder View Post
    Tom, you ought to talk to Andy Baker if you want information about SS and bodybuilding stuff all rolled into one.
    That's the weird thing--Andy Baker is one of the writers I quote as suggesting methods for hypertrophy, he's coauthor of the grey book with Rip, and here we have Rip asserting that focusing on hypertrophy is bunk.

    The other author suggests leg press as an accessory movement, presumably in part for hypertrophy. Yet I have heard Rip say that the only reason to have a leg press in your gym is for people who physically cannot squat.

    I guess I get it: Rip is almost entirely a strength guy, he doesn't care about training for size or appearance. And hypertrophy tends to be a shiny object that distracts from effective training. But the company approach to that has been to awkwardly straddle the line between "hypertrophy doesn't work" and "sure hypertrophy works, go to a bodybuilding forum for that shit," meanwhile occasionally leaking tidbits of hypertrophy advice. Why not just some open discussion about what works for hypertrophy and when and how to add it to the program? That seems more consistent with SS's direct, no bullshit, evidence-based approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    Yes, there is a ton of bodybuilding advice out there and much of it is crap. That's why it would be nice to have hypertrophy advice from a trusted and tested source like SS--so that a person who is sufficiently far along in training can get that specialty guidance here.



    That's the weird thing--Andy Baker is one of the writers I quote as suggesting methods for hypertrophy, he's coauthor of the grey book with Rip, and here we have Rip asserting that focusing on hypertrophy is bunk.

    The other author suggests leg press as an accessory movement, presumably in part for hypertrophy. Yet I have heard Rip say that the only reason to have a leg press in your gym is for people who physically cannot squat.

    I guess I get it: Rip is almost entirely a strength guy, he doesn't care about training for size or appearance. And hypertrophy tends to be a shiny object that distracts from effective training. But the company approach to that has been to awkwardly straddle the line between "hypertrophy doesn't work" and "sure hypertrophy works, go to a bodybuilding forum for that shit," meanwhile occasionally leaking tidbits of hypertrophy advice. Why not just some open discussion about what works for hypertrophy and when and how to add it to the program? That seems more consistent with SS's direct, no bullshit, evidence-based approach.
    Tom,

    Bodybuilding is a separate endeavor from strength training. Is there massive overlap??? - of course. Starting Strength / The Aasgaard Company educates people on the best methods for strength training. One of the core principles is that strength is the foundation of everything else that we might do. So we educate people on how to get strong. For much of our market, strength will be the primary and only focus of their training / athletic endeavors. Most of the people we train are focused on getting strong for the purposes of maintaining their usefulness in daily life, improving their health and general fitness, and mitigating the effects of the aging process. And for most of them, the simple process of progressively overloading the main lifts over time and consuming sufficient protein and calories will give them all of the hypertrophy that they need or want.

    For others, they are going to want to take a general base of strength and apply that to a more complex athletic endeavor that requires a more diverse set of training methodologies. It is not the mission of the organization (nor the obligation) to thoroughly educate the market place on how to train for every conceivable athletic endeavor that would benefit massively from a well developed base of general strength.

    Many SSCs are or were formally associated with Crossfit. Most of us, and many Crossfitters, would tell you that an excellent starting place for a beginning Crossfitter is with a Novice Linear Progression to get the Squat, Deadlift, Bench, Press, and Power Clean as strong as possible, as quickly as possible. At some point, if a guy wants to get on ESPN and compete in The Crossfit Games he's gonna have to figure out a way to train Crossift specficially. There may be some individual SSCs out there who have some expertise in this, some interest in this, and can take the models and principles we teach in the books and apply it to a program designed to get a guy better at Crossfit. But that's on that SSC. It's not incumbent on the organization to now teach Crossfit training in the books.

    The same can be said with say....Strongman. Immense overlap between the basic barbell lifts and Strongman competition. We even kinda mention Strongman programming in PPST3, but it's not the core of what we do, at all, so we aren't going to become the "go-to" organization for Strongman competitors.

    Track & Field competitors should also squat, deadlift, power clean, bench, and press......but should we also be coaching Track & Field? No. But it would be great if sprinters started squatting to parallel, and using their hips in the squat.

    Bodybuilding is no different than these other examples. Bodybuilders squat. Crossfitters squat. Strongmen squat. Sprinters squat. Triathletes squat. The books are more concerned with educating people on the things these sports have in common as a foundation, but less concerned on the nuances of specific training for each application.

    Hope that helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    Why not just some open discussion about what works for hypertrophy and when and how to add it to the program? That seems more consistent with SS's direct, no bullshit, evidence-based approach.
    Why doesn't Burger King also have an oil change service? There are plenty of SSCs who will gladly have such a discussion with you either in person or online. I'm not an SSC so I don't know about rates or booking procedures and they may vary by coach. If you are post-natal and need help getting through your NLP as a health intervention, I'm happy to be of assistance in any way possible. Otherwise, all I can do is refer you to an SSC.

    The Kindle Edition of the books are $9.99 each. And you can get used print copies for about the same price. Get all three. SS:BBT, PPST, and BBP (even if you're under 40).

    If you've read and *understand* the books, you already *know* how to add assistance/accessory work to the program. There's a search function for the forums that may also be of assistance. You can "chase a pump 'to an extent.'" How much of an extent? If you comprehend specificity, overload, and fatigue management you can already answer that question. If not, you should focus on completing your NLP and, in the process, building the skills and knowledge that you will need as an intermediate lifter. By the time you've done that, you will be equipped to make programming adjustments.

    If a 40 year old guy who barely squats two plates is successful in adding leg presses to his program, he will be able to make himself look like a 40 year old guy who can squat four plates. Can you guess what else would make that person look like they can squat four plates?

    The evidence for the books is decades of experience helping people get stronger to improve their health and to become better athletes.

    Some people (including some SSCs) have a strong interest in adding accessory work for purely cosmetic reasons either for personal interest or because it's important to their clients. You can find one here. When placing your inquiry, you can let them know that you want direct and no bullshit answers for your money.

    Programming

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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    Yes, there is a ton of bodybuilding advice out there and much of it is crap. That's why it would be nice to have hypertrophy advice from a trusted and tested source like SS--so that a person who is sufficiently far along in training can get that specialty guidance here.
    I mean, it's not anyone's job to do that for you, unless they agree to it. The main focus here is strength, and expecting hypertrophy guidance would be the same as expecting ultimate frisbee tips.


    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    That's the weird thing--Andy Baker is one of the writers I quote as suggesting methods for hypertrophy, he's coauthor of the grey book with Rip, and here we have Rip asserting that focusing on hypertrophy is bunk.
    As far as strength goes, focusing on hypertrophy is in fact bunk. It does not appear to actually improve strength as well as a true strength training program does. Some people get some strength going out of it, but I suspect those are the same people who could build up to some mighty impressive numbers if they effectively trained for strength instead. For those of us not so gifted (like myself), hypertrophy training doesn't seem to build strength at all. At least none of my forays into bodybuilding type shit as a teenager really got me anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    The other author suggests leg press as an accessory movement, presumably in part for hypertrophy. Yet I have heard Rip say that the only reason to have a leg press in your gym is for people who physically cannot squat.
    If you are training people FOR STRENGTH, that is indeed the main reason to have one of those available.

    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    I guess I get it: Rip is almost entirely a strength guy, he doesn't care about training for size or appearance. And hypertrophy tends to be a shiny object that distracts from effective training. But the company approach to that has been to awkwardly straddle the line between "hypertrophy doesn't work" and "sure hypertrophy works, go to a bodybuilding forum for that shit," meanwhile occasionally leaking tidbits of hypertrophy advice. Why not just some open discussion about what works for hypertrophy and when and how to add it to the program? That seems more consistent with SS's direct, no bullshit, evidence-based approach.
    I would hazard to guess Rip is not ALMOST entirely a strength guy, seems to me he is just entirely a strength guy. It's in the brand name. You're seeing a dichotomy here where there is none. It's not "hypertrophy doesn't work", it's "hypertrophy doesn't work...for building strength". In my own experience, it didn't. Didn't really make my muscles all that much bigger either. Training for strength absolutely has, and I'm pretty sure I'm somewhere on the left side of the bell curve. The advice to seek out a bodybuilding forum instead for information is good advice. No one wants to try and tell you how to do something they don't really have much background in. Unfortunately seeking out bodybuilding advice will expose you to many people who WILL, but that is sadly the state of bodybuilding. It's full of deceptions, and delusions. If you're already strong and are interested this stuff, maybe just try some experimentation? There is a program example in the 4 day split section of the grey book for a program that keeps heavy work on the big four barbell lifts but also includes higher volume assistance stuff. See how that works out for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    That's the weird thing--Andy Baker is one of the writers I quote as suggesting methods for hypertrophy, he's coauthor of the grey book with Rip, and here we have Rip asserting that focusing on hypertrophy is bunk.

    The other author suggests leg press as an accessory movement, presumably in part for hypertrophy. Yet I have heard Rip say that the only reason to have a leg press in your gym is for people who physically cannot squat.
    Well, they are in fact two different people, entitled to offer their own services to the fitness market. Some burger joints use white onions while others use red. Pick what suits your wants and needs rather than saying all burgers must have white onions.

    Anyway, go check out Andy's website. He has written tons of articles about bodybuilding and offers a few powerbuilding programs that will probably appeal to you. You can join his Baker Barbell Club Online and ask him all the questions you want about this stuff.

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    Just to add to this, I found out about Starting Strength from reading the Bodybuilding.com forums where the general advice to newbies was Starting Strength, Strong Lifts, etc.

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    I think there must be a distinction between strength training, hypertrophy, bodybuilding, powerlifting, and so forth.

    What is mostly commonly referred to by "bodybuilding" entails much more than just hypertrophy, but also definition, aesthetics, symmetry, and proportion. In this particular case, just getting bigger is not always better. In the same way that powerlifting is not only about getting stronger, but also optimizing levers, minimizing range of motion, etc.

    Hypertrophy on the other hand is just a physiological adaptation, not something you train for. You train for strength, and the exercise selection and methods of training will determine how the increased strength manifests itself. Getting stronger on 5x10 lateral raises will have a different result than getting stronger on 1x5 press.

    Ancillary work is a way of increasing stress without overtaxing your recovery. That is most likely irrelevant for a novice, and even for the person that benefits from or requires ancillary work, the approach is different than that of the main lifts, since the programmability of such exercises is very low. But there certainly is a point in one's lifting journey where maybe doing another set of bench press might be too much, and assistance or ancillary exercises might help with this. Or where a particular muscle group didn't develop as expected, and an already pretty strong lifter can benefit from pump and fluff work.

    The way I see, the biggest problem of conventional bodybuilding wisdom is not making the distinction between classes of exercises and not having any clue on how to program for progress, instead of just hitting the weights and hopping for a miracle.

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    People who say hypertrophy training doesn't increase strength have not read the book, and probably don't understand the stress=adaptation framework, nor do they understand the novice effect. However, it is one thing to say that hypertrophy training will lead to strength gains, and another to say that it is the most optimal. It is not the most optimal. Thus we are all writing on a board called Starting Strength, doing the NLP, and listening to Rippetoe on Youtube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Baker (KSC) View Post
    Tom,

    Bodybuilding is a separate endeavor from strength training. Is there massive overlap??? - of course. Starting Strength / The Aasgaard Company educates people on the best methods for strength training. One of the core principles is that strength is the foundation of everything else that we might do. So we educate people on how to get strong. For much of our market, strength will be the primary and only focus of their training / athletic endeavors. Most of the people we train are focused on getting strong for the purposes of maintaining their usefulness in daily life, improving their health and general fitness, and mitigating the effects of the aging process. And for most of them, the simple process of progressively overloading the main lifts over time and consuming sufficient protein and calories will give them all of the hypertrophy that they need or want.

    For others, they are going to want to take a general base of strength and apply that to a more complex athletic endeavor that requires a more diverse set of training methodologies. It is not the mission of the organization (nor the obligation) to thoroughly educate the market place on how to train for every conceivable athletic endeavor that would benefit massively from a well developed base of general strength.

    Many SSCs are or were formally associated with Crossfit. Most of us, and many Crossfitters, would tell you that an excellent starting place for a beginning Crossfitter is with a Novice Linear Progression to get the Squat, Deadlift, Bench, Press, and Power Clean as strong as possible, as quickly as possible. At some point, if a guy wants to get on ESPN and compete in The Crossfit Games he's gonna have to figure out a way to train Crossift specficially. There may be some individual SSCs out there who have some expertise in this, some interest in this, and can take the models and principles we teach in the books and apply it to a program designed to get a guy better at Crossfit. But that's on that SSC. It's not incumbent on the organization to now teach Crossfit training in the books.

    The same can be said with say....Strongman. Immense overlap between the basic barbell lifts and Strongman competition. We even kinda mention Strongman programming in PPST3, but it's not the core of what we do, at all, so we aren't going to become the "go-to" organization for Strongman competitors.

    Track & Field competitors should also squat, deadlift, power clean, bench, and press......but should we also be coaching Track & Field? No. But it would be great if sprinters started squatting to parallel, and using their hips in the squat.

    Bodybuilding is no different than these other examples. Bodybuilders squat. Crossfitters squat. Strongmen squat. Sprinters squat. Triathletes squat. The books are more concerned with educating people on the things these sports have in common as a foundation, but less concerned on the nuances of specific training for each application.

    Hope that helps.
    Andy, thanks for responding.

    This response and most of the others falls in the "sure hypertrophy training works, go to a bodybuilding forum for it." Which is a reasonable position, but it is not Rip's position. I'll quote his article at length:

    Likewise, “muscularity” – the appearance of the individual muscle bellies – is obviously enhanced by making them bigger, but their final appearance is almost entirely controlled by your genetic endowment – just like sub-10% bodyfat. High-level bodybuilders are born, not trained, and the best way to waste a bunch of time getting neither stronger nor more muscular is to train for “hypertrophy,” the new 21st-century word used to market template training services that use light weights to the huge number of guys who don't understand this.

    The appearance of your calves, quads, delts, bis, tris, and abs is always improved by getting your press to 200, your bench to 300, your squat to 400, and your deadlift to 500, as fast as possible. And that's all we're concerned with. This simple but difficult process is accomplished by using sets of 5 reps, adding weight every workout to the basic exercises as long as you can, and not wasting time with assistance work. You'll eventually look even better at 275/375/550/625, and we know how to do that too. We don't know how to build “capstone deltoids” or “diamond-shaped calves” – neither does anyone else. And we don't care, since all we care about is strength.

    So resist the temptation to criticize the Starting Strength program for its imagined failings based on your own personal insecurities. If you want to be healthier, get stronger. If you don't like your body composition, get stronger. If you don't like your aesthetics, get stronger. If you're mentally healthy, you'll see the point very quickly. If you're not, getting stronger will help that too.

    So appearance of muscularity is controlled by genetics, not created by training, hypertrophy training doesn't make you bigger, no one (not even bodybuilders) knows how to train to build bigger muscles, getting stronger is the only way to improve aesthetics.

    To compare that to one of your examples, that would be like saying "crossfitters are born, not trained. The best way to waste time is to train for crossfit. Crossfit performance is always improved by getting your big lifts up. We don't know how to train specifically for crossfit, and neither does anyone else. If you want to do better at crossfit, get stronger."

    It is not incumbent on the organization to now teach Crossfit training, or bodybuilding. But at a minimum shouldn't the organization avoid saying things that about Crossfit training/bodybuilding that are obviously untrue?

    Quote Originally Posted by EdTice View Post
    Why doesn't Burger King also have an oil change service? [...]

    If a 40 year old guy who barely squats two plates is successful in adding leg presses to his program, he will be able to make himself look like a 40 year old guy who can squat four plates. Can you guess what else would make that person look like they can squat four plates?

    Programming
    There is a tautology in here. I am a 50-year-old guy who squats a bit over three plates. By definition I look like a 50-year-old guy who squats over three plates. But I haven't added much size to my legs. If I get my squat up to 4 plates, I would then look like a guy who squats 4 plates. I have no reason to think that doing so would add the kind of muscularity to my legs that bodybuilders get (by doing things like long, intense workouts using the leg press). So if I want that--remember this discussion is about the realities of training, not my motivations--I'd have to train a different way.

    "SS doesn't do oil changes"--fine. "No one needs oil changes, all anyone needs is a hamburger"--not fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    There is a tautology in here. I am a 50-year-old guy who squats a bit over three plates. By definition I look like a 50-year-old guy who squats over three plates. But I haven't added much size to my legs. If I get my squat up to 4 plates, I would then look like a guy who squats 4 plates. I have no reason to think that doing so would add the kind of muscularity to my legs that bodybuilders get (by doing things like long, intense workouts using the leg press). So if I want that--remember this discussion is about the realities of training, not my motivations--I'd have to train a different way.
    I really don't understand your point here. I have said that strength increases require hypertrophy, and this is just not arguable. If you don't like your legs at 315x5, get your squat up to 405x5 and your legs will have grown, because that is the mechanism by which your strength increases. You seem to think the bodybuilders have a secret way of increasing leg size without doing this. Ronnie Coleman and Dorian Yates can explain this to you, and maybe you'll believe them. But here's the bad news: if you have shitty genetics for legs, you're not going to get big legs, no matter how much volume and RPE you do on the leg press.

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