The Irony of "The Progressive" | Daniel Oakes The Irony of "The Progressive" | Daniel Oakes

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Thread: The Irony of "The Progressive" | Daniel Oakes

  1. #1
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    Default The Irony of "The Progressive" | Daniel Oakes

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    If it's reasonable and progressive to allow “transwomen” to play women's sports and “transmen” to play men's sports, wouldn't it also be reasonable and progressive to drop the sex/gender divide altogether and allow everyone to participate as human beings – outright total freedom among the sexes and genders (sexes and genders that wouldn't even be worth acknowledging anymore)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stef View Post
    They've focused on individuals who transitioned to “women” in order to compete against other women
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    Are you claiming that individuals like Hubbard that have transitioned did so in part or mainly to be able to compete against women? I don't think that's what is meant, but that's how I read it.

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    This is a notion that was articulated pretty explicitly in their recent Part 2 video, that people are transitioning for sports competitiveness—along with the idea that the desire to transition is the result of brainwashing by doctors, politicians, and other elites. This is idiotic and, if nothing else, a failure to treat the actual experience of millions of people worldwide with basic respect. "No, sorry, you're not dysphoric, you've been duped, you’re a cheater." If you want to talk about identity and experience being erased, there it is!

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    I concede that you can transition without any motive other than the desire to identify as X. Perhaps I was a bit loose with my sentence, or perhaps you guys are nitpicking and being a bit harsh. I mean, athletes do transition to be more competitive (that's why they're athletes) - it's surely not edgy/controversial to state that? And Hubble didn't HAVE to compete in the woman's division, even WITH his penis chopped off... So we must assume he wanted a slight advantage, in my opinion.

    Oh, and sorry, but if a fact happens to 'erase someone's identity and experience', then the fact still stands, no matter how triggering. Facts are facts. It's a sad world.

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    I think the question should be “ if you’re so emotionally wrapped up in being born in the wrong body ( and I know there are people out there for whom this is true), how then do you have the emotional capital to expend on being a top level athlete in the first place?”

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    I mean, athletes do transition to be more competitive (that's why they're athletes)
    What is this, your speculation? You have examples? I don't accept the inference you make about Hubbard's motivations. Maybe an athlete wants their achievements to be seen as representative of the social group to which they belong. Like if you're a woman and an olympic athlete, you want your victory to be a victory for women. You want young *women* to look up to you.

    My head might have been somewhere else when I used the word "erase". A common TERF talking point (one that came up a lot in that Part 2 video I referred to) is that trans women "erase" the identity and experience of cisgender women--a total crock. But when you say shit like this

    And Hubble didn't HAVE to compete in the woman's division, even WITH his penis chopped off...
    with, correct me if I'm wrong, a deliberate "his", identity and experience are being erased in a big way. Being trans is an intrinsic part of the general human condition; that's the "fact" y'all are triggered by. There are millions of "third gender" people in south asia alone, and it's an identity woven into many long-standing cultural traditions. There are references to trans people as far back as recorded history goes. One example I like.

    This organization ought to disentangle its concerns about exposure to endogenous testosterone from the general bigotry that surrounds them. You won't even acknowledge people as who they are; that has to be worked out before any changes to athletics can be meaningful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twigs View Post
    What is this, your speculation? You have examples? I don't accept the inference you make about Hubbard's motivations. Maybe an athlete wants their achievements to be seen as representative of the social group to which they belong. Like if you're a woman and an olympic athlete, you want your victory to be a victory for women. You want young *women* to look up to you.
    An elite athlete wants to win. Period. He wants to win for himself and maybe for his country, but only the most narcissistic want young people to look up to them. If Hubbard won the Olympics, it wouldn't have been a victory for women; it would've been a victory over women. Also, don't expect athletes to admit that they transitioned for a competitive advantage in the same way you don't expect athletes to admit to taking steroids. Regardless, both of these do provide an undisputed competitive advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by twigs View Post
    with, correct me if I'm wrong, a deliberate "his", identity and experience are being erased in a big way. Being trans is an intrinsic part of the general human condition; that's the "fact" y'all are triggered by. There are millions of "third gender" people in south asia alone, and it's an identity woven into many long-standing cultural traditions. There are references to trans people as far back as recorded history goes. One example I like.

    This organization ought to disentangle its concerns about exposure to endogenous testosterone from the general bigotry that surrounds them. You won't even acknowledge people as who they are; that has to be worked out before any changes to athletics can be meaningful.
    Laurel Hubbard's feelings don't change his biology. The "his" is deliberate because we aren't going to eradicate truth at the expense of identity and experience. Nobody on this board would deny the existence of gender dysphoria or deny that transgenders are human. Most of us do know, however, that men cannot become women and women cannot become men. We won't rewrite reality to spare the feelings of an "intrinsic part of the general human condition" that occurs in less than one percent of the American population.
    Last edited by Dalton Rankin; 09-06-2021 at 04:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twigs View Post
    What is this, your speculation? You have examples? I don't accept the inference you make about Hubbard's motivations.
    I think (and this is one of the issues with having discussions like this on forums versus in person) he was using 'transition' in a very broad sense. So world class athletes transition and transform their bodies through intense training, periodization, etc.

    Personally, while I don't understand trans identity or body dysmorphia, I think transitioning between sexes is too extreme a change for anyone to undergo for athletic dominance (the changes of elite bodybuilders and some other athletes may come close, but the extreme changes are usually much slower and without the difficulties a trans person may face.

    Do you have a link for the 2nd part of the video. I'm curious if you are portraying it accurately as things can easily be misunderstood.

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    Let's work backwards:

    It doesn't matter what SS thinks of whoever. They might think X, Y, Z about you and I, but Rip once said that only we have control over our nervous systems; we are responsible for how we react to an external stimulus. I can't blame you for your 'trigger.'

    Just because millions of people partake in something, it doesn't make that something correct (slavery for example). Many cultures do many things, and is it right by virtue of the fact that they do them? Of course not.

    And fine. Hubble didn't transition to gain an advantage...

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    starting strength coach development program
    Hubble?

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