Depression and Training II: An Update on Testosterone Therapy | Andrew Lewis

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Originally Posted by AndrewLewis

It's possible that we're just identifying it more now than ever before. Like autism in the 90s. Prevalence hasn't gone up - our detection of it has.

I'm not saying that's the case. I'm just hypothesizing.

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Nope. Levels across the board have cratered in the slop-loving, man-hating cultures of the west over the last few decades.

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Originally Posted by stef

Nope. Levels across the board have cratered in the slop-loving, man-hating cultures of the west over the last few decades.

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What do you think the mechanism is?

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Originally Posted by AndrewLewis

What do you think the mechanism is?

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There are ten thousand factors, but reading up on xenoestrogen is a good starting point.

The feminization of formerly male spaces is also harmful, and obviously Western culture has an enormously negative impact on masculinity (and femininity too). But Western culture is the symptom--not the cause--of the underlying condition of men literally physiologically becoming more like women. Unfortunately, we have become so decadent that what we might call "traditional" masculine and feminine virtues are greater threats than value-adds to the established order.

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Originally Posted by oface

There are ten thousand factors, but reading up on xenoestrogen is a good starting point.

The feminization of formerly male spaces is also harmful, and obviously Western culture has an enormously negative impact on masculinity (and femininity too). But Western culture is the symptom--not the cause--of the underlying condition of men literally physiologically becoming more like women. Unfortunately, we have become so decadent that what we might call "traditional" masculine and feminine virtues are greater threats than value-adds to the established order.

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There's so many potential factors and that's part of why I think it's so hard to nail down and quantify what is doing what. The back and forth relationship between psychology and testosterone makes things especially difficult. Testosterone can make you feel good, but feeling good can also up your testosterone. The only thing we seem to be able to say for certain is that it is happening. I feel like it is especially bad for millennials onward. Of course it's not universal, there are still naturally "high t" members of these younger generations.

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Originally Posted by Sebastian Ohanian

I don't think TRT causes fertility issues--I would say the opposite actually because you will have more sex. If you are super concerned about it, you can add HCG. I wouldn't wait years to have kids to add it if you need it now.

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I'm pretty stable now. I am a bit concerned still about how it affects my training, but mentally I am alright. Or at least as alright as a sane person can be expected to be in the wonderful world of 2021. From what I've researched, relying on exogenous rather than endogenous testosterone can mess with fertility. You might have a boosted sex drive and I'm sure that makes life more awesome, but the odds of that sex making a baby seem lowered. Kids aren't that far off for me, it's probably going to happen within the next 5 years or so.

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Originally Posted by oface

There are ten thousand factors, but reading up on xenoestrogen is a good starting point.

The feminization of formerly male spaces is also harmful, and obviously Western culture has an enormously negative impact on masculinity (and femininity too). But Western culture is the symptom--not the cause--of the underlying condition of men literally physiologically becoming more like women. Unfortunately, we have become so decadent that what we might call "traditional" masculine and feminine virtues are greater threats than value-adds to the established order.

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This laundry list gets read out every time this topic comes up (and blaming everything from Mr Rogers, Feminism or the Democrats is often not far off in the conversation). Regardless, what you describe are naturally occurring processes as a result of changes to our daily lifestyles over time, so shouldn't they ideally should be reversed by lifestyles choices before seeking drug therapy first?

I'm starting to sound like Tom Cruise or something but am cautious of hormone therapy for the average person for the same reasons I am cautious of SSRIs.

Is the idea now that you will be on TRT for the rest of your life? A wife and kids is one thing, but that just sounds so permanent...

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Originally Posted by Frankie

I'm starting to sound like Tom Cruise or something but am cautious of hormone therapy for the average person for the same reasons I am cautious of SSRIs.

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Do SSRIs occur naturally in the human body?

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Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe

Do SSRIs occur naturally in the human body?

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Serotonin does. Mind I am not pushing for SSRIs, but at least the premise of SSRI treatment is they are a supplement to get you through a rough spot to you get your life back order and ideally a patient will get off them as soon as possible to avoid dependence and side effects. SSRIs also have positive effects on neuroplasticity and synapses to help prevent depression reoccurring in the future - I don't think such a mechanism exists for TRT, does it? (Genuine question). I'd think you would want to avoid depending on indefinite treatment.

Stopping TRT doesn't sound like much fun, but is it better or worse than Effexor withdrawal?

My point was if test levels in all men have fallen so steadily since the 60s or the 80s, that could only be the result of lifestyle or diet changes occurring within our lifetimes and should be reversible as such.

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Originally Posted by Frankie

This laundry list

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I offered a single causal factor: over-exposure to estrogen-mimicking compounds.

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Originally Posted by Frankie

(and blaming everything from Mr Rogers, Feminism or the Democrats is often not far off in the conversation)

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Seems like you're new to this topic, which is awesome. But just FYI, the trend we are discussing pre-dates PBS, the Third Wave, and modern Democrats.

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Originally Posted by Frankie

Regardless, what you describe are naturally occurring processes

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The phenomenon of measurable decreases in t-levels across generations tracks closely with the rise in industrial xenoestrogens, so the opposite of naturally occurring.

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Originally Posted by Frankie

shouldn't they ideally should be reversed by lifestyles choices before seeking drug therapy first

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If I'm reading this broken sentence correctly, are you saying you know what steps these people took prior to seeking treatment?

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Originally Posted by Frankie

Serotonin does.

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Not my question. SSRI means "selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors," which cause serotonin to lay around in place after it should be removed. SSRIs do not naturally occur, while testosterone does.

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Originally Posted by oface

I offered a single causal factor: over-exposure to estrogen-mimicking compounds.



Seems like you're new to this topic, which is awesome. But just FYI, the trend we are discussing pre-dates PBS, the Third Wave, and modern Democrats.



The phenomenon of measurable decreases in t-levels across generations tracks closely with the rise in industrial xenoestrogens, so the opposite of naturally occurring.



If I'm reading this broken sentence correctly, are you saying you know what steps these people took prior to seeking treatment?

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Points noted on all these, my post was a bit on the high horse about natural fixes and not aimed at anyone in particular. The Mr Rogers comment was facetious but you were definitely starting up on """Western Culture""". Not sure about your point about xenoestrogens, sounds like you are agreeing with me in that it's an example of modern stuff to be avoided. That's a lifestyle thing not a genetic curse that can't be prevented like asthma, bad teeth or hypogonadism.
Though if the premise is that the exposure to xenoestrogens during puberty has already irreversibly messed something up I could see the logic in wanting to undo it with chemical intervention.

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Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe

SSRIs do not naturally occur, while testosterone does.

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SSRIs are not produced naturally in the body any more than testosterone nasal sprays are.