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Thread: Conditioning for Novices | Mark Rippetoe

  1. #21
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    • starting strength seminar april 2024
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    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost and Found View Post

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    But I didn't tell you how much rowing training I was doing. If I did one session in the boat all year before the Olympic final do you think I would win it? This is the entire basis for my posts in this thread. We already know I need barbell training to get strong. I also need to develop a lot of endurance. How? When? And how much? There's a lot to cover here, pertaining to such things as energy systems, ATP regeneration, competition between adaptations, recovery factors, programming and workout scheduling, lactate tolerance, VO2 max, bodyweight, and so on. If strength training could be summed up in a couple curt of forum posts as 'squat, press, bench press, and deadlift every 2-3 days, lift a little bit more each time and eat a lot of food' then there'd be no need for two books on it. Obviously there's more to say. And there's more to be said on this topic as well.


    Is this a troll? If not it's probably one of the worst things I've seen written on the forum in years.


    You are not correct. Reading comprehension.

    Do enough rowing practice to adapt to whatever you need to do in the race, and that will be your endurance training, unless you are training for a 3' race when you will be competing for a 7' race, which is stupid.
    I feel like I'm just paraphrasing what Rip has told you more than once in this post and in the article.

    You did not reply to my other questions about Olympic or international rowers.

    I was suggesting that if someone at that level trains for exceptional endurance and it doesn't contribute to the win, maybe something else does, and maybe, in a 7' race, which is not at an international or Olympic level, that something is strength.
    You said it's a regional level regatta race, I would bet a lot of the participants are not even lifting weights or eating more than 3000 calories a day, so I'd say you are already at an advantage just by doing the NLP and eating 6000 calories a day while practicing.

    You cannot get strong and also develop "a lot of endurance". You can however get strong and develop enough endurance for the duration of the race, which again, is 7 to 15 minutes, not 3 hours. And it seems to me like Rip told you that your sport's practice should suffice.
    Hopefully that podcast will give you the answers you want.
    I replied to the thread just out of curiosity for your overcomplication, but this is as much as I can get myself involved with my level of understanding.

  3. #23
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    I think I understand what you mean. Someone lost out on a medal in the shot put because he wasn't strong enough. His strength didn't contribute to the win. If elite shot putters train for strength and still lose, that means we shouldn't strength train either.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Someone lost out on a medal in the shot put because he wasn't strong enough. His strength didn't contribute to the win. If elite shot putters train for strength and still lose, that means we shouldn't strength train either.
    You're making the fundamental error in S&C: strength and conditioning are not equivalent parameters.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    I think I understand what you mean. Someone lost out on a medal in the shot put because he wasn't strong enough. His strength didn't contribute to the win. If elite shot putters train for strength and still lose, that means we shouldn't strength train either.
    Out of the entirety of my comment you only took out the olympic reference, misinterpreting it too.
    You ARE dense.
    Anyway, I'm out of the discussion.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    You're making the fundamental error in S&C: strength and conditioning are not equivalent parameters.
    And that's partly why I think there's value in an article/chaper/book laying these things out.

    Shot putters, wrestlers, sprinters, and Olympic weightlifters need strength. Rowers, cyclists, swimmers, canoeists, and cross-country skiiers need endurance. They also need strength, but strength training alone isn't enough, because the nature of the sport requires them to train their cardiovascular system too, so as to specialise to some extent and become competitive in it. For both, strength is necessary. For the former, it is both necessary and sufficient. For the latter, it is necessary but not sufficient.

    Both the strength athletes and the endurance athletes need to practice too, but the strength athletes don't also need to train for endurance. The rower needs to strength train, practice his technique, and also train his cardiovascular system (in many cases there is overlap between the practice and the training, unless the athelete is doing some kind of 'cross training' - e.g. hill sprints or pushing the prowler). Similarly, the runner needs to practice in order to develop an efficient gait, but he also needs to do some hard running before he can go out and win a middle distance competition.

    A 2000m rowing race is done at 98-110% of power at VO2 max, and at a heart rate approaching an athlete's maximum, for around 6-7 minutes. Consequently, rowers have recorded some of the highest blood lactate levels of any athletes immediately following a race (in excess of 18mmol). Don't tell me that significant endurance training, beyond the requirements of technical practice, is unecessary or unimportant. Perhaps strength training is the best way to combat local fatigue, but we also need to develop a resistance to non-local fatigue, i.e. we need to improve our endurance. It's all very well saying that being stronger makes each stroke a more submaximal effort. I would respond by saying that being stronger means you can pull harder, and that the proportion of your maximum effort in each stroke doesn't change significantly. If you're deliberately moving the boat at the same speed you did when you were weaker, fine. But the point of strength training is to enable you to move the boat faster.

    On the other hand, most rowing programmes involve almost no proper strength training at all, and I'm aready acutely aware that in general there's too much endurance training being done and not enough strength training. Given that in the weight room most rowers will be novices under SS's definition, I'm also aware that strength training will make a much bigger impact on performance than more endurance training. But we still have to do a lot of endurance training, and we have to recover from it, whilst trying to get stronger at the same time and recovering from that, too.

    You said during a podcast that you 'can't think of a better way to fuck everything up than doing 100 air squats.' What about doing 500m/90 second sprints on the rowing machine? Or what about 60 minutes of long, slow distance rowing, which is done at a much lighter intensity but for many more repetitions? These things can impact our strength training. Optimising our training in what is, from SS's point of view, substantially suboptimal conditions for acquiring strength is an important topic. Unlike other suboptimal factors, such as being fed terrible food at your public school during the day and then trying to get stronger for football in the evenings, the means of mitigating them, and therefore training more effectively, aren't as obvious.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    And that's partly why I think there's value in an article/chaper/book laying these things out.

    Shot putters, wrestlers, sprinters, and Olympic weightlifters need strength. Rowers, cyclists, swimmers, canoeists, and cross-country skiiers need endurance. They also need strength, but strength training alone isn't enough, because the nature of the sport requires them to train their cardiovascular system too, so as to specialise to some extent and become competitive in it.
    And I have tried, as others have too, to explain to you that the practice of the sport -- if it is frequent enough to improve the sports skills necessary for the sport itself -- provides that cardiovascular conditioning in the precise and exact context in which it will be used, thus satisfying the conditioning requirements of the sport. And somehow you do not understand my point. You want a rower to run laps/do a rowing machine/ride a bike, even though he's in the boat 4 days a week? I've already linked to the article about this. If I write another one, you won't understand it either.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    You want a rower to run laps/do a rowing machine/ride a bike, even though he's in the boat 4 days a week?
    Not necessarily, although I will say that training programmes at university level up usually involve 10-11+ sessions a week, including one or two strength training workouts. The point is that a training stress sufficient to develop the necessary endurance adaptation is probably going to interfere with strength training. Even if those 4 combined practice and training sessions are enough, that means they're going to have been quite stressful. They're not going to be like football practice, where you might spend most of a session doing drills, practicing tactics, or mostly standing around with short bursts of intense activity. Also, when you say 'the precise and exact context in which it will be used,' I expect you don't mean simply always doing flat-out 2,000m sprints during practice, because experience tells us that is far too much stress even ignoring how it might affect your lifts.

    Even if just one session in the boat per week was somehow enough, that could only mean that it was tough enough to help develop a specialised endurance adaptation by itself, and therefore probably very tough. This training can also be progressive in the same way strength training is: one of the great benefits of the rowing machine is that you have fine control over its settings and the data it generates, so you can know that you're rowing incrementally faster/further/with less rest than last time and it can therefore be training in the true sense of the word. So we're trying to do two kinds of hard, progressive training simultaneously and optimise them both as best we can to obtain competing adaptations.

    Straightforward technical practice in any sport probably won't interfere with strength training (other than with scheduling) because it's not a sufficient physical stress. Even in wrestling, judo, etc., you're not always sparring and getting exhausted throwing the other guy with full force during practice. But training for an endurance sport is bound to interfere. 'Do your strength training as we've prescribed and practice your sport' might work perfectly well for football, tennis, golf, and the shot put, but in some sports it's not as simple as this because of the physical stress of the training required.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    And that's partly why I think there's value in an article/chaper/book laying these things out.

    Shot putters, wrestlers, sprinters, and Olympic weightlifters need strength. Rowers, cyclists, swimmers, canoeists, and cross-country skiiers need endurance. They also need strength, but strength training alone isn't enough, because the nature of the sport requires them to train their cardiovascular system too, so as to specialise to some extent and become competitive in it. For both, strength is necessary. For the former, it is both necessary and sufficient. For the latter, it is necessary but not sufficient.

    Both the strength athletes and the endurance athletes need to practice too, but the strength athletes don't also need to train for endurance. The rower needs to strength train, practice his technique, and also train his cardiovascular system (in many cases there is overlap between the practice and the training, unless the athelete is doing some kind of 'cross training' - e.g. hill sprints or pushing the prowler). Similarly, the runner needs to practice in order to develop an efficient gait, but he also needs to do some hard running before he can go out and win a middle distance competition.

    A 2000m rowing race is done at 98-110% of power at VO2 max, and at a heart rate approaching an athlete's maximum, for around 6-7 minutes. Consequently, rowers have recorded some of the highest blood lactate levels of any athletes immediately following a race (in excess of 18mmol). Don't tell me that significant endurance training, beyond the requirements of technical practice, is unecessary or unimportant. Perhaps strength training is the best way to combat local fatigue, but we also need to develop a resistance to non-local fatigue, i.e. we need to improve our endurance. It's all very well saying that being stronger makes each stroke a more submaximal effort. I would respond by saying that being stronger means you can pull harder, and that the proportion of your maximum effort in each stroke doesn't change significantly. If you're deliberately moving the boat at the same speed you did when you were weaker, fine. But the point of strength training is to enable you to move the boat faster.

    On the other hand, most rowing programmes involve almost no proper strength training at all, and I'm aready acutely aware that in general there's too much endurance training being done and not enough strength training. Given that in the weight room most rowers will be novices under SS's definition, I'm also aware that strength training will make a much bigger impact on performance than more endurance training. But we still have to do a lot of endurance training, and we have to recover from it, whilst trying to get stronger at the same time and recovering from that, too.

    You said during a podcast that you 'can't think of a better way to fuck everything up than doing 100 air squats.' What about doing 500m/90 second sprints on the rowing machine? Or what about 60 minutes of long, slow distance rowing, which is done at a much lighter intensity but for many more repetitions? These things can impact our strength training. Optimising our training in what is, from SS's point of view, substantially suboptimal conditions for acquiring strength is an important topic. Unlike other suboptimal factors, such as being fed terrible food at your public school during the day and then trying to get stronger for football in the evenings, the means of mitigating them, and therefore training more effectively, aren't as obvious.
    I'm going to take a crack at this, although I'll probably regret it. There is nobody in this world who is genuinely an expert on both rowing and on strength training and on how to combine them. If you're training for rowing as a competition, hopefully you have a competent coach (even if you are coaching yourself as long as you are competent).

    This means that nobody can give you a precise answer because not a single person here has done exactly what you are doing. I did my NLP while also trying to qualify for the Boston marathon. It didn't work out well for me. But if you want a list of all of the things I did wrong, I'm happy to provide it.

    Where we *do* have an example is combining strength training and football which is not an exact comparison but it gives you a good idea. Given that it was designed to be run in combination with intense football practices and games, why don't you try doing SSS? It's probably the most detailed starting point available.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Not necessarily, although I will say that training programmes at university level up usually involve 10-11+ sessions a week, including one or two strength training workouts. The point is that a training stress sufficient to develop the necessary endurance adaptation is probably going to interfere with strength training. Even if those 4 combined practice and training sessions are enough, that means they're going to have been quite stressful. They're not going to be like football practice, where you might spend most of a session doing drills, practicing tactics, or mostly standing around with short bursts of intense activity. Also, when you say 'the precise and exact context in which it will be used,' I expect you don't mean simply always doing flat-out 2,000m sprints during practice, because experience tells us that is far too much stress even ignoring how it might affect your lifts.

    Even if just one session in the boat per week was somehow enough, that could only mean that it was tough enough to help develop a specialised endurance adaptation by itself, and therefore probably very tough. This training can also be progressive in the same way strength training is: one of the great benefits of the rowing machine is that you have fine control over its settings and the data it generates, so you can know that you're rowing incrementally faster/further/with less rest than last time and it can therefore be training in the true sense of the word. So we're trying to do two kinds of hard, progressive training simultaneously and optimise them both as best we can to obtain competing adaptations.

    Straightforward technical practice in any sport probably won't interfere with strength training (other than with scheduling) because it's not a sufficient physical stress. Even in wrestling, judo, etc., you're not always sparring and getting exhausted throwing the other guy with full force during practice. But training for an endurance sport is bound to interfere. 'Do your strength training as we've prescribed and practice your sport' might work perfectly well for football, tennis, golf, and the shot put, but in some sports it's not as simple as this because of the physical stress of the training required.
    Is it not obvious that for sports with an endurance base so high that it interferes with strength training, the strength component is less critical, and can be obtained in the training schedule at a lower level of both intensity (%1RM) and frequency (2x/week instead of 3)? Like marathon training, we don't anticipate turning these people into lifters. I've made this clear many times.

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