45-Incline Press as the Only Pressing Exercise? Minimalism reasons.

[Fleischman]

The press doesn't train the pecs and triceps? I must be doing it wrong.

Matt, what I meant is if there is a standing press variation that works the triceps and pectoral more than the regular standing press does (so maybe this variation is a candidate for my single upper-body pressing exercise.

Why not a single "lower-body" exercise too?

Well, the question I prefer is "why a single lower-body pressing exercise, yet two upper body pressing exercises?".

As you have explained elsewhere, the front squat and the low back squat are (almost?) two different exercises. The torso-to-thigh angles at the bottom of these two squats are so different! You have explained in depth elsewhere why you include in your program the low back squat and not the front squat, so I am not asking that.

Your latter question has helped me realize what I really wanted to ask with this thread:
Can the reasons why Rip uses only one lower body pressing exercise (the low back squat) be used to consider using only one upper body pressing exercise?

And, by analogy: can the reasons why Rip uses two upper body pressing exercises be used to consider using two very-different-from-each-other" lower body pressing exercises?

If they cannot, why not?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Well, the question I prefer is "why a single lower-body pressing exercise, yet two upper body pressing exercises?".

Because one of the upper-body pressing exercises has a kinetic chain that extends from the floor to the hands, and the other does not.

[Fleischman]

You’re trying to get rid of two valuable lifts for one that does nothing as well as either. Incline press is more complicated to learn than regular bench press and you don’t get to handle as much weight. And part of the benefit of pressing is that it is somewhat complicated, in that the kinetic chain uses pretty much everything. But it’s still simple enough that you’re less likely to hit your nose than you are with an incline press.

Thank you for explaining this.

Because one of the upper-body pressing exercises has a kinetic chain that extends from the floor to the hands, and the other does not.

Thank you.

Thank you everyone

[dalan]

You can do whatever you want but if you do the bench and the press, or, since you like the incline press, the bench, the press and the incline press, you'd only do one of them per day anyway. That seems pretty minimalistic already - one upper body press per workout. With that in mind, why your insistence on doing just the incline to the exclusion of the other two? If absolutely nothing else, including the bench and the press would be less boring than doing inclines every single workout. It may seem like a good idea now but what about six weeks from now? Just speaking for myself, excessive incline pressing bothers my shoulders before long while overhead pressing makes them feel better. You may be different though. If, for some odd reason, I was in a position of having to pick one upper body pushing movement to the exclusion of all others, I would pick the overhead press. Just my thoughts and do keep in mind that I'm old and beat up and my opinions are with my personal limitations in mind.

[Matt James]

Matt, what I meant is if there is a standing press variation that works the triceps and pectoral more than the regular standing press does (so maybe this variation is a candidate for my single upper-body pressing exercise.

No, there isn't-- except, I believe as the press approaches bodyweight, the mechanics of it will require more work from the pecs. Rip can correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, the question I prefer is "why a single lower-body pressing exercise, yet two upper body pressing exercises?".

I'm not sure what you mean by a "lower-body pressing exercise" but you are aware that the program incorporates squats, deadlifts, and power cleans, right?

The rationale behind exercise selection is discussed exhaustively in the blue book, which I suspect you have not read, or at least, not comprehended. Really, it's all there.

Short answer, the press has manifold benefits, with the only disadvantage being that the absolute weight is limited. Flat bench press lacks all those benefits but can be loaded heavier. The incline press likewise lacks the benefits of the standing press, and cannot be loaded as heavily as the bench. It is classed as an assistance exercise for a reason.

I don't understand why you're hung up on minimalism; Starting Strength is about as minimalistic as you can get without sacrificing utility and efficiency. Having said that, if I were forced by circumstance to choose only one upper body exercise, it would be the press. No question.

[Jason Donaldson]

I don't understand why you're hung up on minimalism; Starting Strength is about as minimalistic as you can get without sacrificing utility and efficiency.

Why doesn't it work not to lift at all? Or to do one max single of one exercise? Or the Nautilus "one set to failure per body part" approach? Those are more minimalist...but the return's not there.

Efficiency is the key term. Minimalism in not inherently useful - efficiency - minimizing expenditure for the desired outcome - is what we're after.

[Fleischman]

If absolutely nothing else, including the bench and the press would be less boring than doing inclines every single workout. It may seem like a good idea now but what about six weeks from now? Just speaking for myself, excessive incline pressing bothers my shoulders before long while overhead pressing makes them feel better. You may be different though.

Thank you for your point of view, dalan. Immediately prior to deciding to get a home barbell gym and start SS, the following has been my only upper body pressing exercise for months: roughly-45-degree decline 6-inch-deficit pushups. I never found it boring. Just the opposite, it has been joyful: the joy of less!

In thinking about these things I realize that (amount of weight lifted aside) the 45 degree decline push-up might conceptually be a more "rounded" exercise than the 45-degree seated incline press. Because the kinetic chain of the former goes from hands to feet, while it is shorter in the latter.

No, there isn't-- except, I believe as the press approaches bodyweight, the mechanics of it will require more work from the pecs. Rip can correct me if I'm wrong.
...
The rationale behind exercise selection is discussed exhaustively in the blue book, which I suspect you have not read, or at least, not comprehended. Really, it's all there.

Short answer, the press has manifold benefits, with the only disadvantage being that the absolute weight is limited. Flat bench press lacks all those benefits but can be loaded heavier. The incline press likewise lacks the benefits of the standing press, and cannot be loaded as heavily as the bench. It is classed as an assistance exercise for a reason.

I don't understand why you're hung up on minimalism; Starting Strength is about as minimalistic as you can get without sacrificing utility and efficiency. Having said that, if I were forced by circumstance to choose only one upper body exercise, it would be the press. No question.

Matt, these are good points. I do have both books and am reading them both simultaneously at the rate Life allows. I have been convinced in this thread that I cannot give up the benefits of standing while I press, so regardless of whether I incline press or not, I will definitely do overhead press.

I do not understand why it would be a disadvantage of the Press that it cannot be loaded with as much weight. Isn't incrementally progressing in one's 5RM all one should care about (regardless of how much one can press compared to how much one can lift in other exercises)?

[KeithI]

I do not understand why it would be a disadvantage of the Press that it cannot be loaded with as much weight. Isn't incrementally progressing in one's 5RM all one should care about (regardless of how much one can press compared to how much one can lift in other exercises)?

It’s perhaps not so much a disadvantage of the press as it is an advantage of benching. If you press 200 and bench 300 then the bones in your arms have to get stronger to support 300 pounds than they would if you were only pressing 200. Same applies to your triceps and various other muscles. Benching works great to help advance the press. Early on I wasn’t doing the program simply because I didn’t have a bench and rack. So I’d pick the barbell up and press, just to be doing part of the program. I got up to 170 pretty quick just doing three sets of five three days a week, then it got hard. Once I got the equipment to do the program my press took off again, and a big reason for that was stressing those muscles with heavier weights while benching.

[Jason Donaldson]

In thinking about these things I realize that (amount of weight lifted aside) the 45 degree decline push-up might conceptually be a more "rounded" exercise than the 45-degree seated incline press.
...
I do not understand why it would be a disadvantage of the Press that it cannot be loaded with as much weight. Isn't incrementally progressing in one's 5RM all one should care about (regardless of how much one can press compared to how much one can lift in other exercises)?

I would invite you to compare these two ideas. How does one incrementally progress a 5RM on a push-up?

Overall, it looks like this thread is progressing steadily to understanding why the program is laid out the way it is...which reasoning is itself explained in the books and videos at length.

It's amusing that a conversation about striving for minimalism is essentially rediscovering extant material.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I would invite you to compare these two ideas. How does one incrementally progress a 5RM on a push-up?

Overall, it looks like this thread is progressing steadily to understanding why the program is laid out the way it is...which reasoning is itself explained in the books and videos at length.

It's amusing that a conversation about striving for minimalism is essentially rediscovering extant material.

It's almost as if we've thought about this before.