She can squat below parallel right now. You are just not following our very specific instructions for showing her how. Reread the book.
Member
Female friend can't squat with anything on her back
Hey Rip,
I've been trying to get a friend of mine squatting. She's got the right attitude but can't ever seem to hit depth with anything on her back. At first I assumed it was a strength issue, and I've had her doing goblet squats and deadlifts. But at this point she's doing goblet squats for 10 reps with a 25lb dumbbell and I've seen her deadlift over 150 lbs and she still can't squat with even a 5-10 lb body bar on her back (she CAN front squat it, though). I've tried various cues, a higher bar position, weights under the heels (this did help a tiny bit), etc. but she can't get past 90 degrees without her knees buckling in.
For your consideration, here's a couple videos.
Air squats (she can't really do them without the arms forward):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_-lPPO0tE8
25lb goblet squats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeVFRd7mL7w
back squat attempts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oujAjjbfano
Seems to me her back is real short and/or her femurs are real long. Hopefully there's something to be done.
Last edited by Jake Galgon; 02-01-2010 at 12:55 PM. Reason: fixed goblet squat link
TMPHBITEU
She can squat below parallel right now. You are just not following our very specific instructions for showing her how. Reread the book.
Member
What cues are you using? It seems like she's bending at the knee more and not sitting back. You can clearly see the weight shifting to her toes on some of those reps in the last video.
Member
I agree whole heartedly with what Mark is saying.
You really are giving her no specific instruction, it seems like you expected the something perfect to appear when you just said "squat"
She clearly has the ability, just not the right instruction.
Reading the book will help you with all of this, but some things to think about:
She is trying to keep a vertical upper body, did you tell her to do this?
Because it is wrong. Hips need to go back which means forward lean.
Also this process of thought is all the opposite of what you should be doing:
Sort out the bar position already, get her elbows tilted back & up with the bar locked against hands (not fingers). If you have the right arm position, a very secure and intuitive position on the back of shoulders will appear.I've tried various cues, a higher bar position, weights under the heels (this did help a tiny bit),
A higher the bar is, the more vertical the torso will want to be to maintain centre. Get the bar back down to the right place which will allow a squat with more forward lean (a low bar squat)
After you have fixed some of the basic stuff, make sure her knees are kept pushed out sideways. Many girls seem to have weak external rotators and buckle at the knees quite easily. Keep this in check so she can develop a solid squat.
Member
Rip: I cannot find anything in the book that I haven't tried besides widening her stance and knee angle more than I already have (cf. pg. 54 in the first edition). That will be the next thing to try; if it doesn't work, I'll probably have her hold the bar higher on the traps to further increase the back/femur ratio (bad idea?) and if that doesn't work I guess I'll just keep looking.
Am I at least right to think that the femur/back ratio is what's causing her problems, or should I be looking elsewhere?
fwiw, she's never squatted without something--forward hands, goblet-held db, etc.--to shift forward her center of gravity. She can't do air squats with her arms hanging. Her back is almost as horizontal on front squats and goblet squats as mine is on deadlifts.
The back squat video was unfortunately taken at the end of the day when she was tired and the forward back angle isn't super-evident because she aborts the attempts so quickly; she seems to be trying to get her center of gravity forward by dumping the knees forward rather than by bending hard at the waist as she needs to if she goes any deeper.
Mr. City: Knees out and butt back are the big two cues that have produced any degree of success. I've also had her squat onto a not-quite-parallel box with the bodybar on her back and she has had to adopt a fully horizontal back angle and super-forward knee position to stand up.
TMPHBITEU
What does her unloaded position in the bottom with elbows against knees look like?
Member
Dastardly, It may surprise you to know that the entirety of my instruction over an hour and a half is not contained in these three 10-second clips.
Rip, Her back is nearly horizontal in the knees-out squat stretch. I intend to get pictures tomorrow, when I also plan on seeing if a wider stance helps.
TMPHBITEU
Good. I may be late responding since we're in San Diego this weekend, but I'll get to it when I can.
Member
Rip et al helped me sort a problem with a cyclist I work with who may be similar in some ways, except male ... it even made it (the question, not so much the solution!) into MOMG!Originally Posted by Jake Galgon
http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=12024
Member
Definitely seen this before.
Her problem is likely just balance. She is balanced so far forward that proprioception tells her to stop and stand up.
Like others said, her weight must be shifted back towards heels with knees pressed out hard (you already knew that, of course). Now how to make that happen? Try these and be patient to do them correctly as many times as needed:
-The squat stretch. Have her rock forward and backward, toes and heels. Emphasize that heels is the correct feeling. Then have her rise up from the stretch staying on heels.
-Put a bench/box in front of her when she squats to force her knees and hips back. This will be very difficult and very useful for her. The bench/box should be anywhere from 0-6 inches from her toes.
-Spot her from behind to eliminate some fear of falling back with her weight finally shifted off her toes and towards her heels.
When she gets it right, everyone will be amazed. She'll suddenly be able to squat weight with confidence
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