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  1. #41
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    I think the biggest problem in nutrition today stems from one fundamental misunderstanding; that calories don’t always count. We’ve observed that some people can eat more than other people while maintaining (seemingly) similar daily activity levels, and yet they don’t get fat while the other people do. Therefore, energy intake vs. energy expenditure must not be what determines fat storage. I think this single misunderstanding is what allows all of the macro manipulation diet “secrets” (myths is a much better word) to exist. The reality, though, is that energy intake vs expenditure is BY FAR the greatest determinant of bodyfat storage. What’s really varying is not the way our bodies handle the calories via metabolism, it’s a more complex relation between an individual’s energy intake and their energy expenditure (which again is the sum of one’s daily activities, and NOT as a result of some magic metabolic process). You cannot manipulate fat storage (in either direction) without changing the overall energy balance, which is not directly related to the source or makeup of the energy you consume.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jboy View Post
    You cannot manipulate fat storage (in either direction) without changing the overall energy balance, which is not directly related to the source or makeup of the energy you consume.
    Does this mean you don't believe timing of meals, number of meals, macronutrient composition and timing or food choice matter, assuming a given energy balance?

    Do any of these factors affect energy balance?

    Do any of these factors affect muscle growth?

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdp View Post
    Does this mean you don't believe timing of meals, number of meals, macronutrient composition and timing or food choice matter, assuming a given energy balance?

    Do any of these factors affect energy balance?

    Do any of these factors affect muscle growth?

    Here I have to quote Alan for this :

    • The first law of nutrient timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
    • The second law of nutrient timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.

    What can actually be done is using intermittent fasting to create an environment which is more likely to attack stubborn fat instead of other depots, but it will always depend on C-IN/C-OUT.

    And yes, it does matter. For health, especially, considering what is in grains. (look at interleukin-15 experiments regarding Gluten/Gliadin tolerance).

    But in the end, no, it wont matter too much as long as it supports enough protein for your musculature. And that isnt very much.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdp View Post
    Does this mean you don't believe timing of meals, number of meals, macronutrient composition and timing or food choice matter, assuming a given energy balance?

    Do any of these factors affect energy balance?

    Do any of these factors affect muscle growth?
    I think it’s wise to get some protein/calories in your system post-workout so your body can start replenishing and recovering. I also personally think it’s wise to give your body some protein/calories to work with while you sleep at night (prime recovery time, IMO). Beyond those two specific times of the day (both of which are probably less important than most people would believe, yet probably worthwhile nonetheless), I don’t believe it matters when you eat your meals or whether you eat 2 meals or 10.

    As far as macro composition is concerned, assuming you’re getting enough protein, where the rest of your calories come from is of far less importance. If you end up in a calorie surplus (i.e. beyond what your body needs for energy and recovery/growth), you’re going to add to your fat stores, regardless of the macro composition.

    Food choices do matter from the standpoint of health and nutrition (you don’t want to end up with vitamin or mineral deficiencies etc.), but from a body composition standpoint, once again assuming you get enough protein (which does affect muscle growth), it all comes back to the overall energy balance.

    None of the above directly affects energy balance. This is another area where I think people get confused because of the many possible indirect effects from the above, any one of which can affect energy balance. For example, some people have trouble controlling their eating on high carb diets (once they eat some carbs, it’s difficult to quit eating). These indirect effects are very individual and are related to diet adherence, calorie control, personal preference, etc.

    Muscle growth requires three things: proper stimulus (training), a diet consisting of a caloric surplus (can’t make something out of nothing) and adequate protein, and adequate rest.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank.taeger View Post
    But in the end, no, it wont matter too much as long as it supports enough protein for your musculature. And that isnt very much.
    How tall are you and how much do you weigh?

  6. #46
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    How about:
    - Eat enough protein. 1g/lb seems the most popular, although some recommend more.
    - Eat an appropriate number calories. How to figure out the right amount seems harder and to depend on individual factors such as existing weight, %bf, age, activity level, etc. Perhaps 15 or so cal/lb for maintenance, 12 to lose, 18 to gain, unless you're young and SS, in which case GOMAD, etc.; vary to taste?
    - Most everything else is rounding error

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    How tall are you and how much do you weigh?
    About 195 lbs, bodyfat somewhat around 22-24% ish. I actually lost my caliper and navy method isnt that accurate.

    Had a good run last year using starting strength and about a quarter gallon of milk, went up to 200ish lbs and had decent results in squat and deadlift.

    Squat was at about 300lbs, deadlift around 360.

    Bench and military don't count anymore, I have an 8 year old SLAP lesion that has taken me far aback training unfortunately together with Swine flu that took me out last year afterwards

    Got myself back to old values. I stopped doing the program before since I couldnt afford new pants. Seriously

    I have no idea how big I am in inches, but about 174cm. Big but short legs in comparison to upper body, arms are not too long, but far tom T-rex.

    How about:
    - Eat enough protein. 1g/lb seems the most popular, although some recommend more.
    - Eat an appropriate number calories. How to figure out the right amount seems harder and to depend on individual factors such as existing weight, %bf, age, activity level, etc. Perhaps 15 or so cal/lb for maintenance, 12 to lose, 18 to gain, unless you're young and SS, in which case GOMAD, etc.; vary to taste?
    - Most everything else is rounding error
    I have found that this is about what works. With beginners, I watch their bodycomposition. If they are very skinny with no frame to speak of, quickly increasing calories by milk consumption (No way you forcefeed a skinny f*ck with steak), GOMAD is a great idea. For the typical chubster... didnt work out that well with my clients, especially if they were older and wanted to give that a try.

  8. #48
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    Well, you're not carrying that much muscle for your height, so I was wondering how you knew so much about the amount of protein needed to grow muscles.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Well, you're not carrying that much muscle for your height, so I was wondering how you knew so much about the amount of protein needed to grow muscles.
    Ok, lets play it this way. I was once 150lbs, 20% bodyfat, a skinnyfat fuck.
    Now, I am a 195lbs 23% bodyfat bigger but chubby, more useful person.
    Meaning I have put about 30lbs of muscle onto my frame.

    Other answer to that : I have been a muay thai fighter, we have weight class restrictions, so I am interested in getting as strong as possible while staying under a certain restriction level. I am chubby since I got injured and careless and then said fuck it and did starting strength since damage was done already. Accounts for 15lbs of the muscle up there. And all the additional fat, too.

    But then again we both know, that this example is completely irrelevant. Wether or not I am chubby, skinny, fat, having a 300lbs or 800lbs squat won't change the facts that have been observed.

    Those facts I know is protein researchers who have done their homework quarreling about 2.2/gkg and 3g/kg as upper limits with the 3g/kg are arguing there are benefits too small to measure. I know that protein synthesis in higher meal timing didnt improve above 20gs of protein per meal in multiple studies. I know that starving yourself for short periods as in intermittent fasting produces an increase in protein synthesis which itself isnt bigger after 20gs of ingestion but bigger than in frequent feeding due to growth hormone secretion...

    And that is shit I just dont know from the gym, since my gym doesnt come with a lab

    Rip, I mean, we both know that my arguments only change in the heads of people considering how I look or who I am. We both know, since I consider you a highly educated person, that the person bringing the message is irrelevant to the message. Isn't that exactly what you talk about in your last issue? The blind leading the willing? In the nutrition field, there is a lot of nautilus machines out there with people being lead by "nautilus specialists."

  10. #50
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    starting strength coach development program
    That's a pretty good answer.

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