The "other" way to do a clean. The "other" way to do a clean. - Page 3

starting strength gym
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 56

Thread: The "other" way to do a clean.

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Atlanta area
    Posts
    4,915

    Default

    • phoenix arizona seminar date
    • texas seminar date
    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B Hardigan View Post
    Here's a good side angle of Dimas cleaning. His hips are low but his butt doesn't rise

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igcy8Gwljjc
    And yet his hips are, at least as far as I can tell from this angle, exactly where the set-up would place him should we use the set-up model for a deadlift. He is just raising his chest and setting his shins against the bar in the same motion, something Rip would not say is wrong in an athlete this experienced in his set-up. He also has an amazingly straight bar path, but this was not noted, so I just thought I'd point it out.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Mid-Atlantic
    Posts
    1,637

    Default

    Just another reason to love Dimas

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    I actually heard a football coach say that the reason he had his poor kids do squats with their toes pointed forward was because if they pointed their toes out when they squatted they would point their toes out when they came off the line too. It is amazing the lengths to which people will go to justify lifting lighter weights.
    Thats what some of the coaches think around here... in fact I may have made a thread about it, don't remember.

    The conversation with one coach made me rage!

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    5,764

    Default

    Anecdotally, I can tell you about my experience this weekend at Rip's cert. I've spent the last few months Oly lifting using "the other way." I came to the cert prepared to do whatever Rip told me to do. My Oly coach just did Rip's cert two weeks ago, and I knew Rip really, really pissed him off, haha.

    My power cleans at the cert were:
    73 x 3
    93 x 3
    108 x 3
    123 x 3
    133 x 3
    123 x 4

    It was hard to tell with the empty bar, but as soon as I pulled 73 lbs for the first time, I dropped the bar and told Rip he was ruining my universe. There was a drastic difference in how close the bar was to me. Drastic. This was very clear to me on my lifts at 73, 93, and 108 lbs. By the time I got to 133 lbs, my rack was shit, which is why I went down to 123 lbs again. However, my power clean rack is generally shit compared to my rack in the full clean, and I haven't done any power cleans in the last two months. In fact, the only set I videotaped was the set at 133 lbs. Although my rack was great on the first rep, I think I jumped a little early and the bar bounced off my thighs. The bar path on the second and third rep was pretty damn vertical compared to what I normally do.

    The huge issue for me was the deadlift set up because it is a completely different set up than I have been using. I've been deadlifting with much lower hips. So, it felt fucked up for that reason. That set up is going to take some time to get used to, period.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham
    Posts
    8,470

    Default

    Ive been doing some more researching behind the reasons why so many lifters seem to use this style and stumbled upon a seminar by coach called Don McCauley. He has the viewpoint that there is no place for the "triple extension" in modern weightlifting. That it is as archaic as the monopull/muscle clean from the days when the bar was not allowed to touch the body.

    He expresses that it is ridiculous to fully extend as the lifter needs to be down before there is even time to. And that this is the only logical style to lift today, and that even people using cleans to supplement a non-weightlifting sport, should also not bother to triple extend. He calls this the "catapult style". And a key element of the method seems to be an ultra low hips position with the bar far away from the legs. Staying on the heels is sometimes cued and the lifter often has to jump back to catch the bar.

    I can understand the premise of needing to get down quicker, but I still cannot see why this would require such a hips low method. Strangely Don McCauley also says the important strength for this method of cleaning comes from the posterior chain and not so much the quads.

    This is all very confusing for a novice to weightlifting. Half the info I have read says that hips low is for a more powerful/optimal top end. And this is what most of these lifters look like they are doing (a very slow pull of floor with a powerful hang clean tacked on), but heres this guy saying to never fully extend, use posterior chain to propel bar early of the floor, yet he recommends a inneficient looking low hips position. If you can be bothered to comment Mark, please do.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    39,662

    Default

    What do you want me to comment on? Don's method, which I haven't seen, or the practice of pulling the bar off the ground in a non-vertical bar path, which I have beaten to death here and elsewhere?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Springfield, VA
    Posts
    945

    Default

    Don stopped by our club a few months ago and we chatted him up. His view was that the lifter must keep the bar close to "load the catapult" correctly; that is to have the bar well into the hip crease (in the snatch). He didn't much harp on the start position at all; his big thing was thinking "hips" in the 2nd pull rather than "legs". He seems to think that thinking "legs" inevitably makes one think to "jump", which he says leads to overextension of the knees/ankles that prevents a swift pull under the bar.

    He DID emphasize that most people should start with their balance in the forefoot, and "sweep" the bar with their lats after the take-off to get the balance shifting back to the mid-foot/heel and the bar moving into the lifter. He has posted before, though, that some lifters do better to just start at the mid-foot.

    Basically, it seems like Don wants you to snatch like Krastev:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQntB8adJ4I
    Notice that he breaks the bar off the ground with a low position, but then moves into the more natural bent over position after this.

    I see no reason why you couldn't just start more bent-over to begin with. My gut is that the more upright take-off takes just a bit of strain off the low back and guards against leaning over TOO much. That is, start low and come up as much as you need, rather than start high and make sure you don't lean over any more.

    It all seems like chicken and egg stuff to me a bit. IF you do high-bar squats and don't deadlift heavy, then you do better to lean over less and thus use more of your quads. If you have a huge deadlift, you can probably handle the extra stress on the back and just start with a more horizontal back angle.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    39,662

    Default

    This is amazing. Steve, can you explain why this is amazing? Like a bonus question on the test.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Atlanta area
    Posts
    4,915

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    This is amazing. Steve, can you explain why this is amazing? Like a bonus question on the test.
    Gee, Rip I don't know.

    As far as Krastev goes, let's see. Hips low, but look what happens when the bar is about 4" off the floor, and about 3" below his knee. Isn't that the standard pulling position that I see? Or am I just believing my own lyin' eyes here? Let's see: Bar over midfoot: check; shoulders in front of bar, check; bar against shins, check. Wow, i am amazed by the standardness I am seeing here. It's amazing that we see this time and time and time again. We see it so often, that it amazes us even more each time we see it - I mean, what are that chances that this would keep happening the same way in such a random manner?

    The observant will note the obvious tell that this is going to happen: As soon as he starts hips pull, the bar rolls backwards (watch the plates rotate if you don't know what Rip and I are talking about here).

    The other thing that I find amazing is this, related to McCauley's direction on set-up and "sweeping the bar back": with the bar at the forefoot, and the shoulders at or slightly behind the bar (which is what McCauly coaches in his lifters), the bar is GOING TO FUCKING SWEEP BACKWARDS ALL ON ITS FUCKING OWN, and doesn't need to be "pulled." You'd have to watch one of McCauley's videos to know that he coaches his lifters to set up with the shoulder at the bar or slightly behind to pick that one up, so score one for me in the bonus round.

    Would that be it?

    Or would it be that, gee, that the only way to jump is through HIP EXTENSION?


    I don't know, Rip.

    I'm too amazed by watching another video of a BRUTALLY STRONG HUMAN BEING perform well DESPITE what he's doing.

    What do you think he deads / squats?
    Last edited by Steve Hill; 11-17-2010 at 09:32 PM. Reason: To fix my hurried English and poor sentence construction.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    39,662

    Default

    starting strength nutrition camp
    I had heard that he squatted 800 x 2. But I heard that a long time ago.

    Update: My source says 375k front squat.
    Last edited by Mark Rippetoe; 11-17-2010 at 03:14 PM.

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •