The "other" way to do a clean. The "other" way to do a clean. - Page 5

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Thread: The "other" way to do a clean.

  1. #41
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    • texas seminar date
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    in the videos above and this one Dimas uses significant lay back even though he is not chasing the bar. even tagir it is clear that the bar has already moved back before the second pull, so the lay back is not compensating for it going forward.

    (left out the end of my comment)
    Kakhaishvili appears to have "tighter" technique than Dimas.
    looks so effortless
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm1CwVNo4Zk
    Last edited by Mark Rippetoe; 11-18-2010 at 06:01 PM.

  2. #42
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    Rip and I had a discussion in the seminar exactly about why the early shrug. He maintains a vertical bar path despite it. I think (but cannot prove) that he does it to lengthen his back a bit at that particular time in the lift. Rip is far more experienced in looking at this shit than I am, but that one gave him a bit of pause. Unfortunately due to the nature of the seminar, we didn't have time to fully explore it, but if, at that time, he keeps his back a little bit longer, he can keep his back horizontal a little bit longer. What's the advantage of that? I'm sure I don't know. We never got to discuss it fully. It could be that it lends more low-back torque during the hip extension phase of the lift.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sourpickle View Post
    even tagir it is clear that the bar has already moved back before the second pull, so the lay back is not compensating for it going forward.
    Please convert this to English.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in ATL View Post
    if, at that time, he keeps his back a little bit longer, he can keep his back horizontal a little bit longer. What's the advantage of that? I'm sure I don't know. We never got to discuss it fully. It could be that it lends more low-back torque during the hip extension phase of the lift.
    When the back angle rotates through the second pull to the slightly-behind-vertical position of the shrug, it has moved through about 60 degrees of angle. As the back accelerates through this angle, the bar hanging from the arms accelerates with it. The faster you whip through the angle -- and the more angle you can preserve to whip through by staying out over the bar longer -- the faster the bar accelerates with it. The lats preserve the verticality of the bar path. Dimas is very good at staying over the bar longer, and Steve and I have discussed the observation that his shrug at the knees is his way of preserving the back angle higher into the pull. You'll notice that almost everybody else begins their back-angle change before the bar gets to the knees, except for Dimas, and as shown in the link above, Kakhiashvili to a lesser extent.
    Last edited by Mark Rippetoe; 11-18-2010 at 06:16 PM.

  4. #44
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    Thanks for the material from the new book, Rip. Yet more money you'll get from me, a-hole! I think, though, my question was badly worded. I understand (and much better now!) why Krastev HAS to get more horizontal in his pull, other than wanting to have knees. What I don't understand is why he starts more vertically to begin with. As Steve asked: why bother breaking the bar off the ground in a near-squat when you're going to have to end up bending over anyway? I know the obvious answer is: "Because he's very strong and this minor imperfection of technique does not hurt him", but I'd like to think that a lifter of this caliber doesn't keep a technical quirk unless it helps in some way (for instance to reduce work for the lower back or to hedge against "over-leaning").

    And thanks to both of you for the discussion of Dimas. An interesting theory, and I can certainly see that what might initially seem like bad technique could actually be good for a particular lifter in a particular context. I do think you'll face a hard sell on people less willing to suffer biomechanics. Perhaps, though, this line of reasoning suggests an answer for the upright back issue: that is, do lifters with certain characteristics get more out of a 1st pull using an upright start position, despite its being, on the average, biomechanically nonsensical?

    I would love to come to a seminar, but unless you have one in the DC area, it will have to wait until I'm not double mortgaged and paying off a wedding.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRod View Post
    What I don't understand is why he starts more vertically to begin with. As Steve asked: why bother breaking the bar off the ground in a near-squat when you're going to have to end up bending over anyway?
    The most obvious explanation is that this is the way he was taught, and he's strong enough to make up for the inefficiency. Strength will do that for you. To paraphrase the greatest minds in the sport today: "The best lifters in the world do it this way, so there must be a reason." And then they fail to adequately explain the reason in light of the simple physics of the vertical pull, citing a bunch of stupid shit about fatigue (during a 0.4 second pull), better position for the second pull (which happens in the position you se Krastev in above), or other equally invalid reasons. The reason it works is that the best lifters in the world are also the strongest lifters in the world, if not the most efficient.

    The only technical advantage I see is that with a closed knee angle the tension on the low back from the hamstrings is slack, thus permitting an easier low-back arch. This is an expensive trade-off in that the knees-forward position shoves the bar forward, making it necessary to do the work of pulling it back to the balance position over the mid-foot, either before the pull starts if it is a heavy enough deadlift or during the first part of the pull if it is a clean or a snatch. This is work done on a moment arm that need not exist if the lifter conforms the floor pull to the position required for a vertical bar path off the floor. Note the bar path of Dimas snatch and clean off the floor.

  6. #46
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    [QUOTE=Mark Rippetoe;188367]Please convert this to English.

    Messed that up, my english isn't so good, i was born in the peoples republic of new jersey.

    i meant to say that Taner Sagir's excessive back angle on his second pull does not appear to actually bring the bar back in line, since by that time it is already back in line. in fact it looks like the bar is pulled even further back than needed because of his second pull back angle.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    The most obvious explanation is that this is the way he was taught, and he's strong enough to make up for the inefficiency. Strength will do that for you. To paraphrase the greatest minds in the sport today: "The best lifters in the world do it this way, so there must be a reason." And then they fail to adequately explain the reason in light of the simple physics of the vertical pull, citing a bunch of stupid shit about fatigue (during a 0.4 second pull), better position for the second pull (which happens in the position you se Krastev in above), or other equally invalid reasons. The reason it works is that the best lifters in the world are also the strongest lifters in the world, if not the most efficient.
    I was introduced to all this the first time I attended your cert in Arlington, VA a few years ago. Then again in NJ last year with you. Shortly after your cert in NJ I had the opportunity to attend the USAW cert with Leo Totten up in PA. It was held at East Strousburg University. The interesting thing was the University had a seemingly pretty bright biomechanics professor who was attending the cert. I picked him out of the croud when I heard him speaking to another attendee about the moment arms in the squat.

    I ran this all by him in a 5 minute conversation that could have went on and on for most of the day but we were cut short by the real learning that needed to be had, the USAW teaching progressions for the lifts. He was genuinly interested in the subject and stated from a mechanical perspective it made perfect sense. He was interested in the research potential of the subject. Of course non of this will be put to rest until you consistantly produce dominant lifters in the sport with this technique.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    When the back angle rotates through the second pull to the slightly-behind-vertical position of the shrug, it has moved through about 60 degrees of angle. As the back accelerates through this angle, the bar hanging from the arms accelerates with it. The faster you whip through the angle -- and the more angle you can preserve to whip through by staying out over the bar longer -- the faster the bar accelerates with it. The lats preserve the verticality of the bar path. Dimas is very good at staying over the bar longer, and Steve and I have discussed the observation that his shrug at the knees is his way of preserving the back angle higher into the pull. You'll notice that almost everybody else begins their back-angle change before the bar gets to the knees, except for Dimas, and as shown in the link above, Kakhiashvili to a lesser extent.
    Do you reccomend that we try and keep our shoulders over the bar for as long as possible?

    I have noticed that i can bring my knees under the bar as soon as the bar clears my knees. I guess this is wrong, because this is in effect rotating my back to the 'slightly-behind-vertical position of the shrug' as soon as possible rather than keep over for as long as possible.

    Also, is there a danger that your shoulders can go TOO FAR over the bar and you can end up performing an explosive RDL? and how can one prevent this?

  9. #49
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    Default how do they deadlift?

    Hey Rip

    How do they deadlift, with the same stupid ass low hips position set up? Thought this may add to this thread,

    Grant

  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=sourpickle;188598]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Please convert this to English.

    Messed that up, my english isn't so good, i was born in the peoples republic of new jersey.

    i meant to say that Taner Sagir's excessive back angle on his second pull does not appear to actually bring the bar back in line, since by that time it is already back in line. in fact it looks like the bar is pulled even further back than needed because of his second pull back angle.
    Then why does he miss forward when he misses, or step forward to save the lift EVERY SINGLE TIME?

    Quote Originally Posted by BJB82 View Post
    Of course non of this will be put to rest until you consistantly produce dominant lifters in the sport with this technique.
    I'll just claim Dimas as my lifter to shorten the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by mccaulleyg View Post

    How do they deadlift, with the same stupid ass low hips position set up? Thought this may add to this thread,
    How does who deadlift, Grant?
    Last edited by Mark Rippetoe; 11-19-2010 at 04:42 PM.

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