quick questions about deadlift and clean/powerclean/snatch

[ibbz786]

Hi i been watching a lot of videos and reading a lot of articles (including yours) on cleans, deadlifts etc and something is bugging me

On the Clean/Powerclean/Deadlift from what i have understood your supposed to use leg drive to push the barbell off the ground keeping the hip/shoulder angle constant until you reach the knees.

At this point you say you pivot at the hips i.e. thrust the hips forward

I was watching and reading some interesting stuff Tommy Kono mentioned (bare in mind he was demonstrating with a snatch as an example) but he said its the same for cleans that when the bar reaches the knees your suppose to pivot through the shoulders and not the hips to get a more vertical bar path because if you thrust the hips it causes hyperextension of the lower back i.e more leaning back.

I notice if you pivot at the shoulders the bar moves away from you a little but if you thrust the hips this happens to a lesser effect because your bringing your hips to the bar?


What are your views on this?

and is the Double knee bend necessary as it cause a loss in bar velocity?

[Mark Rippetoe]

You can think about whipping the back angle through the 60 or so degrees of angular movement by either thinking about the shoulders or the hips. The net effect is the same: the back angle changes rapidly, and the angular acceleration is converted to linear acceleration down the arms to the bar. And done correctly, the second pull causes and increase i bar velocity. This is why every weightlifter past the rank novice stage performs this movement, usually without recognizing they have done so.

[Tiburon]

You can think about whipping the back angle through the 60 or so degrees of angular movement by either thinking about the shoulders or the hips.

Very interesting, I hadn't thought of it this way before. Thanks.

[Mark Rippetoe]

One more reason to come to a seminar.

[ibbz786]

Very interesting but i do notice when you pivot from the shoulders/back when your past the knees the bar has a natural tendency to drift away and I feel my lats working hard when i try to keep the bar close to my legs, I guess this is whats known as pulling the bar into the body, but when thrusting your hips forward I dont seem to have this problem and dont feel my lats working as hard because during this movement your bringing your hips to the bar right? or correct me if i am wrong.

Thrusting the hips does cause you to hyperextend a tad when your fully extended i.e. in triple extension (you know if you didnt fully extend if you jumped backwards right) but i don't get this when i pivot at the shoulders and if you notice when you raise at the shoulders fully into triple extension as tommy kono pointed out in those vidz your hips automatically extend too without overreaching o hyperextending and it is much eaiser to get a shrug hence making the elbows whip round easier for the rack.

so what way would you say is most efficient in terms of safety on the lower back and general, in terms of a vertical bar path and the method which allows the most weight lifted without a fall in technique? (I am asking these questions above regarding both the clean and the deadlift)

oh and btw on the deadlift is the bar suppose to just be in contact with your shins and mid thigh or are you supposed to roll the bar over your knees too? hence keeping the bar in contact at all times because like i said when i pivot at the shoulders the bar drfits away from my knee and comes back to brush my mid thigh when im trying to pull it back and keep it close.

Thanks for taking the time to read what I have written and answering my questions very helpful

and do you have a podcast Mark?

[Mark Rippetoe]

If the back whips through the angle from over the bar to erect at lockout, the lats have to be used to keep the bar coming up vertically. If the arms were just ropes and the weight was just hanging down from them, when the back whipped through the angle the weighted ropes would swing away due to the centrifugal force. The lats keep the bar under the scapulas so that the bar path can remain vertical.

If you're asking me which of these two cues I use, it's neither. I teach a jump, which creates the image of the bar going straight up and makes the body solve the problem of the straight vertical bar path without any forward/back stuff involved.

[Randle McMurphy]

If you're asking me which of these two cues I use, it's neither. I teach a jump, which creates the image of the bar going straight up and makes the body solve the problem of the straight vertical bar path without any forward/back stuff involved.

Rip, a cue i have been playing around with, which i borrowed from your squat teachings, is to imagine the bar moving up and down in a slot over the mid foot, ie like in a smith a machine.

When i try this during a clean and snatch, i fine most of my issues with the bar bumping low on my thighs is resolved/loopy bar path.

Every used/heard of cue liek this?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yes, we use it all the time for our sharper lifters. It's the "Master Cue," since it references the most basic mechanics that apply to all the lifts.