old, strong, little bastid. WTF?

[Ello]

We were just talking about this last night. You will find that in the elite ranks of ANYTHING -- lifting, football, math, beauty -- genetics is the primary determining factor. There is really nothing that an average person can do to work themselves up to elite, unless nobody else is doing that thing. We poor schmoes that work our asses off for years at the thing we can't be elite doing, well, we're just in a contest with each other, because the genetic freaks already have our asses. This is not to say that our work has not been worthwhile, because look at the sorry messes we'd be if we hadn't worked. But the sad fact is that the top 5% are born that way, and that's just the way shit is.

My profoundest apologies.

Maybe it's just me, but when I read this, when I read that I can't work my way into "elitehood", I don't accept it. I can't accept that I cannot be the best at whatever I put my mind to. Maybe that's childish. Maybe it's foolish. But, I'll be damned if I accept anything less than perfection.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Just curious: Where does "strength" like this reside in the body? In other words, when we say "it is in the genes", what is "it"? Chemicals? Do you think there will be some way in the future that a scientist with a microscope could identify some type of difference (cellular or otherwise) to account for why one person is so much stronger than another?

It's hiding in the neuromuscular system. Some guys motor nerves are plugged in better, and their fast twitch ratios are better. They are bigger, smarter, thicker-skinned, heavier-boned, more naturally aggressive, and this is all coupled with a work ethic, which is probably genetic as well.

Maybe it's just me, but when I read this, when I read that I can't work my way into "elitehood", I don't accept it. I can't accept that I cannot be the best at whatever I put my mind to. Maybe that's childish. Maybe it's foolish. But, I'll be damned if I accept anything less than perfection.

And if you thought differently, you'd be incapable of maximizing your potential. And you'd be a pussy too. It's good that you're not a pussy.

[Carlos Daniel]

There is an interesting case that illustrates this genetics thing.

There is a case of a baby born with both non-funcional myostatin alleles. Myostatin is a protein which restricts muscle growth, having less of it makes you more muscular. The baby in question had a muscle cross section area on the quadriceps that was 7 SD above the average and could walk at a very early age (a couple of months, I don't remember exactly) and was very muscular. His mother was a track and field athlete, and his father was worked with construction and unloaded pavement stones from the truck with his bare hands. There are probably less obvious cases (such as the father, who apparently was a normal-ish looking adult). This case takes when whole "genetics" talk to a more palpable level as the gene is question was identified and it seems to work on a Mendelian fashion.
On the other hand, a lot of genetics talk should rather be called "innate ability", for the simple reason that not everything that is innate is genetics, a lot of it can be random stuff that happens on the uterus.

[Zach]

"Genetic" is really just a generic term for a mix of allele distribution and all manner of epigenetic regulators. Don't kid yourself, though. Some people can eat like a fat housewife, train like one, and look ten times better than and out-lift all of their peers. Happens all the time.

Then, there are those of us who train hard enough to burst zits on our foreheads on every set... for years on end.... and, we look like we've never seen the inside of a gym, regardless of how we eat, sleep, etc...

[Dragar]

you see the extremes a lot more with animals bred for certain qualities - for instance cattle bred to build mass quickly put on muscle ridiculously fast compared to average members of their breed

[Bronan the Barbarian]

...not everything that is innate is genetics, a lot of it can be random stuff that happens on the uterus.

IIRC the study of gene expression is called epigenetics. Fascinating stuff. Read a laypersons book on it a couple of years ago.

[Carlos Daniel]

IIRC the study of gene expression is called epigenetics. Fascinating stuff. Read a laypersons book on it a couple of years ago.

I see. I'm just raising the likely possibility that the innate part can have a big random. Something like "mom ingested a high amount of [insert substance] during whatever period, which resulted in fibroblasts (or whatever) making the tendon insertion a little farther than if she hadn't ingested the thing".

[zzt]

These numbers give some perspective:

- Legend has it Andy Bolton squatted 500 and deadlifted 600 on his first try.

- Dorian Yates bench 315 pounds on his first try.

Mutha F*kers!

[ban0001]

I won't mention names here, but I was introduced to the sport by what I would consider a genetic freak. He totaled over 2000, held some FL records, but had no knowledge of programming. After I had been lifting for a few months, he suggested I bench 10x10 plus assistance work, squat 10x10 plus assistance work, and deadlift 10x10 plus assistance work. At this time I was probably benching 170 and squatting 250. He was asked in an interview what he does and he said he lifts heavy and eats cornbread. I've seen this sort of thing in magazines too. Guys with big totals who don't have the foggiest idea of how they actually got there.

[Mark E. Hurling]

This discussion and lament reminds of two guys in my high school circa 1966, Dwight Banks and Rickie Bragg. I saw Dwight pick up a chevy 350 engine block and carry it a few feet across the auto shop floor over to a bench for closer inspection and disassembly. He was 5'9" and I'd guess 170 pounds. He never did any sports or lifted and was just lean and muscular as hell. God help you if they gave him the ball in PE for touch football and you tried to even get in front of him, assuming you could catch him the first place. He was also fast as hell.

Rickie Bragg played football with me, the only sport he did, because his father needed him too much on the farm. He was lucky to get the Fall for football even. He did lift weights now and again if the coach got on him, but he was 5'11" like me and 210 pounds. He was huge, especially by 60's high school standards. Our front line was very big for a downstate rural IL school averaging 205 pounds, but Rickie was in a class by himself. Later that year I was practicing with the shot put. Rickie walked past on the way to the bus home and asked if he could give it a toss. The SOB threw it overarm like a grenade and it sailed over 5 feet farther than I was capable of doing. I have no idea what his capacity might have been.

Those guys are at the far end of the genetic template. One black, one white. Even saying that, they were probably at the entry level of the truly elite template, but they seemed to be different order of human being to the rest of us sorry asses.