Hey Mark, what were your PRs in competition?

[Mark Rippetoe]

I hate being scooped. What are they?

[Gunnhild Bruno]

I hate being scooped. What are they?

You've only been scooped because they only just became available in the U.S. recently, but I have been hanging out in the Netherlands regularly for a while.

Jenever (from the word for "juniper") is a Dutch gin-like drink. The "old" and "young" designations refer to style, not to the aging of the spirit. Young (jonge) jenever is more like English gin and supposedly came into existence during WWII because grain shortages forced a change to more neutral tasting distillates. Old (oude) jenever is more like an herbal whiskey, as it's made from corn, rye, and barley. It has juniper and herbs in it as well, but the taste is more complex.

I'm quite fond of old jenever. Korenwijn is pretty much the same thing as old jenever, but there's something different about the aging or the barrels. I can't get a straight answer on this from my Dutch friends, but I prefer old jenevers that are also korenwijns. I'm thinking that the "korenwijn" (sometimes spelled "corenwyn") designation just means it's high-quality old jenever.

Don't we have some Dutch folks on here? Perhaps they can clarify.

At any rate, there's a whiskey made out in Oregon called WhipperSnapper that incorporates the techniques for making korenwijn and therefore has some korenwijn-like qualities that come through. It's light with spicy barley and rye notes. Not a heavy lifter or anything, but a great easy sipping drink. http://www.ransomspirits.com/Whipper_Snapper.php I would assume it's easy to find in Seattle, so I thought I'd give you a heads up to look for it, if you haven't tried it already.
(I also like the Old Tom gin that these guys make).

[halbritt]

To clarify, the method in the clip is for an unaged piece of meat or a not very well-aged piece of meat. Where are you seeing wet-aged beef? Or was that just a general comment?



It has too much in the way of vanilla notes for me. Just my preference, though. It's still good.

Most supermarket beef is wet-aged. I don't intend to be didactic, but here's a good article on the subject:
http://www.goodcooking.com/steak/aging/aging.htm

At one point, I understood the biological reasons why a wet-aged piece of beef can't become a dry-aged piece of beef, but they escape me at the moment. I could speculate, but that's not terribly worthwhile.

Re: vanilla notes, I love 'em. I think I still have a youthful taste in whiskey. I prefer the sweeter bourbons with more vanilla notes like Pappy Van Winkle and Eagle Rare. I'm presently drinking some Buffalo Trace and like Woodford's Reserve, it's a little "dry" for my liking.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Spar, you are damned handy to have around.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

Most supermarket beef is wet-aged. I don't intend to be didactic, but here's a good article on the subject:
http://www.goodcooking.com/steak/aging/aging.htm

Huh, interesting, and good to know.

At one point, I understood the biological reasons why a wet-aged piece of beef can't become a dry-aged piece of beef, but they escape me at the moment. I could speculate, but that's not terribly worthwhile.

The Alton Brown thing is only supposed to happen for 3 days, though. Maybe the biochemical stuff is done after the initial wet age before the beef gets to supermarket, but I don't know why the dehydration and concentration of flavors can't continue in your fridge, right? We're not talking giant primal cuts, but a small, commercial cut out of which you can slice 3 steaks or so. A lot of people report success with it. It's not really supposed to turn your supermarket beef into a steakhouse cut that's had a month or so of hanging, but it seems to improve the flavor.

Re: vanilla notes, I love 'em. I think I still have a youthful taste in whiskey. I prefer the sweeter bourbons with more vanilla notes like Pappy Van Winkle and Eagle Rare. I'm presently drinking some Buffalo Trace and like Woodford's Reserve, it's a little "dry" for my liking.

I wouldn't say youthful. It's just a personal taste thing. I generally don't like too much sweet with my alcohol, and that includes aromas. This changes, however, depending on time of year and mood. I find that, as my tastes get more experienced, I get less rigid about what is good. I don't only like [insert x booze type here] when it tastes like [insert a,b, or c qualities here], but I start saying things like, "Wow, this is a nice example of [b] style [x]. I should get some of this for [insert circumstances here]."

Spar, you are damned handy to have around.

I strive to be useful sometimes. Thanks, Rip. You may end up hating the WhipperSnapper, but it's unique enough that you will appreciate trying it.

[Manofglass]

I'm quite fond of old jenever. Korenwijn is pretty much the same thing as old jenever, but there's something different about the aging or the barrels. I can't get a straight answer on this from my Dutch friends, but I prefer old jenevers that are also korenwijns. I'm thinking that the "korenwijn" (sometimes spelled "corenwyn") designation just means it's high-quality old jenever.

Don't we have some Dutch folks on here? Perhaps they can clarify.

New to the forums and strength training, but not to being Dutch, I thought I'd show my gratitude for passing the forum-member-audit by clearing this up for you.

I'm a whiskey fan myself (love the Islays like Talisker and Laphroaig for their peat but don't mind mainlanders like Highland Park either) so I had to look this up on the internet. I found all my answers at http://www.edsreceptensite.nl/gedistilleerd.htm (Dutch website). It turns out that there is actually a significant difference between jenever and korenwijn.

A (relatively) short summary:
In the 1600s apparently the most common distilled drinks were fabricated by distilling wine, a process particularly done to prevent the alcohol from being lost when the wine was about to go sour due to aging. The Dutch call this 'brandewijn', which is derived from 'gebrande wijn' which means burnt or roasted wine. Incidentally the English speaking among you now know why 'brandy' is called what it is, and the Texans among you, as an added bonus, now know why branding a cow is called what it is.

Due to wine being in short supply in the Netherlands due to geography and climate (and maybe even politics) they started to make 'wine' from the more readily available grains corn, rye, and barley (as mentioned by Spar). This alcohol once distilled was called 'Moutwijn' (malt wine). A terrible misnomer if you ask me, but I can't blame my ancestors for not knowing that four hundred years later we usually don't give the name wine to a distilled product. Both Jenever and Korenwijn are made from this base product moutwijn.

Jenever was made originally from moutwijn by adding herbs to moutwijn to soften the strong grain-flavor of moutwijn. Since jeneverbes/juniper was found to be best at this the drink ended up carrying its name. These days, as explained by Spar, they mostly use neutral-tasting, cheaper, alcohol to make Jenever. A drink is allowed to call itself Oude (Old) Jenever when it consists for at least 15% of moutwijn and it has been matured in wood for a minimum of one year. There are no such rules or restrictions for Jonge (Young) Jenever.

Korenwijn (originally short for Korenbrandewijn) is named for its most important base product which is a distillation of moutwijn. 'Koren' is another Dutch word for grains. To be extra clear about it: with moutwijn of itself being a distilled product this indeed makes korenwijn (both the final- and the base product) a doubly distilled drink. The base product has an alcohol percentage of about 72% and has a more neutral taste than moutwijn. The base product is matured in oak barrels of no more than 700 liters for a minimum of one year (but often longer) after which a 'drankmeester' (literally: drink master) creates a blend from different barrels. Korenwijn (final product) needs to consist of a minimum of 51% of moutwijn and is often bottled in authentic ceramic bottles.

Now that I learnt all that I'm definitely having myself some Korenwijn next time I visit the liquor store!

[Gunnhild Bruno]

It turns out that there is actually a significant difference between jenever and korenwijn.

I figured there must be a difference, but all of the korenwijn I’ve had has also been oude jenever and came in ceramic bottles that made me feel like a Hobbit. I take it that korenwijn is the base for good oude jenever or something? I had the impression that korenwijn is easier to find as oude jenever. Or maybe was. Perhaps it is coming back into vogue?