Wake Up Call For USA Mens Weightlifting Team

[Gymmoser]

Well....................obviously the other methods have not worked. Fooling the world you are world class and getting everyone's expectations all blown out of proportion is not to cool either. Brings back memories of the Mark Henry years. I consider it more informing then bashing. Sorry your feelings are hurt that is not my intention. It will take 185 & 225 to get on the metal stand in London. Like I said, I would love nothing more then to hear the USA national anthem at the London Olympics in the 94's or 105 division. I am glad to hear they are well aware of the results, then we should see some great results at our Nationals. Good luck to you and your athletes.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Actually, no, that conclusion does not naturally follow what I said. I demonstrated that this female lifter is NOT stronger than any of our top guys in the weight class right below her. And, I made the point that if she is stronger than the "average" lifter, this is expected, as the female record holder in any event is generally better than the average male in that event. This in response to the statement that she was "stronger than most of our guys".

That everything is ok is not a reasonable conclusion. In fact there are many things that could be improved when it comes to the weightlifting situation in the USA, but none of them can really be addressed when one side of the conversation insists on blaming the fact that we arent #1 on things reasons which are false, and easy to demonstate as false.

Saying that we are not #1 slightly understates the situation: we are #27. And this is one of the few places actually hosting the conversation, the rest exisiting merely to provide back-patting services. The fact that a female lifter is NOT stronger than our top guys in the weight class right below her is kind of a weak point, don't you think? She is actually stronger than the vast, overwhelming majority of our guys in all weight classes. It is obvious that the female record holder in any event is generally better than the average male in that event, which explains exactly what? That our males must be considered as average relative to the rest of the world? We already know that, and that is actually a charitable assessment. The question is why, and your repeated attempts to exempt our coaching program from responsibility indicates to me that you are a part of that problem. If you don't like the horrible bias of this board -- and let me formalize it for you: that US Olympic weightlifters desparately need strength coaches in addition to their weightlifting coaches, since they are not strong enough, and the people in charge right now are doing nothing to address the problem -- please take your anonymous ass away from here, because I for one am sick of reading your posts under this ridiculous user name.

[shepard]

Drop down the list a little, and you have Jared Enderton, who has MUSCLE SNATCHED 130kg (yes I said muscle snatch), Back aquatted 440lbs for a set of 20, and bench pressed 315lbs for a set of 20, so no lack of strength there I think...

At what body weight did Jared muscle snatch 130? Certainly not at his current body weight. He didn't look capable of that at Collegiates, anyway.

The purpose of me posting the Tatiana clip is to get our 94kg lifters in gear. Sadly, if this does not get them motivated nothing will.

Do you really think it's a lack of motivation holding the 94s back? North is really the only 94 that has training footage provided to the public regularly, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a lack of heart or effort. I have my own issues with the training programming in that particular case, but I don't see it as a lack of motivation.

Honestly, we'll be "lucky" to have any male lifters at the Games in London. It's a damn shame, but maybe we can right the ship by 2020.

[Gymmoser]

Great question and excellent reply. Yes, I do think it is motivation. I think North is a gifted athlete and I think he needs to be motivated to work his weaknesses and motivated to fine tune his strengths. We may have a different way to applying motivation. He needs to put all his energy and focus into the bar and become more disciplined. Nothing would make me happier then to see John North do 185 & 225 and I honestly believe he can do those numbers. It will take the right form of motivation and just let's hope he or they get it.

[shepard]

Ah, I see what you mean. I agree completely, then.

[thebigdog]

Well....................obviously the other methods have not worked. Fooling the world you are world class and getting everyone's expectations all blown out of proportion is not to cool either. Brings back memories of the Mark Henry years. I consider it more informing then bashing. Sorry your feelings are hurt that is not my intention. It will take 185 & 225 to get on the metal stand in London. Like I said, I would love nothing more then to hear the USA national anthem at the London Olympics in the 94's or 105 division. I am glad to hear they are well aware of the results, then we should see some great results at our Nationals. Good luck to you and your athletes.

I am not sure who you think is fooling who, or who is raising expectations a bit much. Might be informative to know.

As to the rest, if you have a solution I would love to see you implement it. Good luck to you and your athletes also.

[80smediumsized]

I hate to reignite this whole silly debate, but I'm never sure what rip exactly means by "training with a focus on technique rather than strength". Do you mostly mean that they are working at %s of 1rm which are too low to elicit growth in the classical lifts, or that they're not doing enough generalized strengthening exercises on top of the classical lifts? It really seems like systems which emphasize predominantly classical lifts, but maintain high intensities, and systems that include a lot of generalized strengthening exercises and give a lot of attention to pressing/pulling/squatting strength both produce very high level lifters. Maybe the U.S's deficiency isn't as simple as poor exercise selection and programming...

[Donut62]

I like how when this conversation comes up, people throw a bunch of training numbers of American lifters out to compare to the foreign teams competition lifts (you know, the only ones that mean a fucking thing). As if lifters from other countries aren't putting up astronomical numbers in training to arrive at their world records on meet day.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I hate to reignite this whole silly debate, but I'm never sure what rip exactly means by "training with a focus on technique rather than strength". Do you mostly mean that they are working at %s of 1rm which are too low to elicit growth in the classical lifts, or that they're not doing enough generalized strengthening exercises on top of the classical lifts? It really seems like systems which emphasize predominantly classical lifts, but maintain high intensities, and systems that include a lot of generalized strengthening exercises and give a lot of attention to pressing/pulling/squatting strength both produce very high level lifters. Maybe the U.S's deficiency isn't as simple as poor exercise selection and programming...

If I thought this was a silly debate, I wouldn't be hosting it. There are, after all, only 7000 members of USAW, and I don't make a living selling things to them since they all think I'm full of shit. I think it is important because I've been raised with this sport and I despise the depths to which it has sunk while the administration just stands there with their hands clasped behind their backs and watches, pretending like all is well with the current training paradigm. Moser and I have known each other for 30+ years, and we have some ideas about training weightlifters that the status quo does not appreciate, as evidenced by the Puppy's responses on this board. When Moser tells you something about Olympic lifting, you are a fool if you don't pay attention.

The problem is demographic: we don't have the strongest athletes in Olympic weightlifting in this country, for various reasons. Since this is the case, if we want to improve our performances we have to stop pretending that strength can be acquired by simply doing the snatch and the C&J, since this obviously does not occur post-novice. Now, if you're already strong, you can train anyway you like, and countries with bigger teams have these athletes. They may be more willing to use "other methods" to get strong than we are (and in fact, their coaches may not be any better at making their athletes strong than ours are, but it is irrelevant if you have strong athletes that have been recruited for that reason). Since that is not the case here, until we stop pretending that a 700 lb. deadlift slows down a 400 lb. clean, and we start training for strength to make up for our demographics, our athletes will continue to suffer from the stagnation that passes for coaching expertise.

I think North is a gifted athlete and I think he needs to be motivated to work his weaknesses and motivated to fine tune his strengths. We may have a different way to applying motivation. He needs to put all his energy and focus into the bar and become more disciplined. Nothing would make me happier then to see John North do 185 & 225 and I honestly believe he can do those numbers. It will take the right form of motivation and just let's hope he or they get it.

That Jon is a great athlete is quite obvious. He has the potential to compete at the international level, IF he can focus his exuberance on the bar. I hope he obtains the guidance he needs.

[AriSuper]

As to the rest, if you have a solution I would love to see you implement it. Good luck to you and your athletes also.

I think the Shane Hamman interview provided a solution, American lifters now are not strong enough. My take on the situation is that "everybody" is waiting for that one uber human genetic freak rather than modifying and maybe even radically changing their approach. The solution is simple, because the "problem" is simple, to achieve great results in Olyimpc Lifting you have to posses(or to put it better, acquire) apex technical and strength performance, one without the other simply doesn't go. To bluntly explain my position LeBron is currently the best Basketball player, but his technique would be nothing if he did not poses the base(strength) to express his technique. Vasily Alexeyev, the greatest of all time, worked like a horse on improving his strength, I doubt he had much to improve in his technique.
The Hamman interview was actually an eye opener for me, I always believed the dogma of Olympic weightlifting - you have to start super young and dedicate 10/15 years of your life to becoming a great lifter. That dogma is true in a large part but utterly false in the key element, you have to dedicate the brunt of your 10/15 years of training to acquire the maximum amount of strength - and that is not done by technique alone.
I completely agree with Rip statement that Olympic weightlifting is a great way to display strength , but not the best way to acquire it.