neutral grip pull ups

[bruce]

Does this mean that they are more efficient ?

I have no proof/reasoning but we always seek advantageous mechanics in the main lifts (bar close to the legs for the deadlift , for instance)

Not so much more efficient, just different. The muscles of the upper back and the elbow flexors are, as a unit, in the most effective position and neutral grip pull-ups are therefore slightly easier and/or you can lift more weight. But looking at the elbow flexors individually, the biceps do a little less work when compared to a supinated grip. So it depends what you want to get from the exercise.

Re ROM, it should be similar to the supinated grip version so all I can think is that either you are slightly stronger in the top range with the neutral grip or you have limited shoulder flexion with a supinated grip and are therefore unable to hang completely straight at the bottom.

[mrflibble]

The muscles of the upper back and the elbow flexors are, as a unit, in the most effective position and neutral grip pull-ups are therefore slightly easier ...

This is a big call, made, I suspect, in the absence of any real understanding of basic musculoskeletal anatomy. Which upper back muscles? What do you mean, as a "unit" (As opposed to what? A dissected cadaver?) Most effective position? What does this even mean?

A neutral grip pull up is achieved with the forearm midway between pronation and supination. You could then argue that brachioradialis more effectively aids elbow flexion, but with less biceps involvement as you mention above - but you cannot assert with any certainty that this would make for an overall stronger flexion of the elbow.

This brings me to the overly general "muscles of the upper back". Just how do you think they are involved in supination/pronation of the forearm? Or more specifically, which upper back muscles do you think insert upon the radius and or ulna?

[gape]

I don't see an obvious explanation for this.

Is it possible that my biceps are just weaker than my other two elbow flexors and so neutral-grip is easier than supinated? Even when my workout was mainly curls and push ups as a teenager I would always do hammer curls and I would use the neutral grip on the pull up bar I had at home.

[bruce]

This is a big call, made, I suspect, in the absence of any real understanding of basic musculoskeletal anatomy. Which upper back muscles? What do you mean, as a "unit" (As opposed to what? A dissected cadaver?) Most effective position? What does this even mean?

A neutral grip pull up is achieved with the forearm midway between pronation and supination. You could then argue that brachioradialis more effectively aids elbow flexion, but with less biceps involvement as you mention above - but you cannot assert with any certainty that this would make for an overall stronger flexion of the elbow.

This brings me to the overly general "muscles of the upper back". Just how do you think they are involved in supination/pronation of the forearm? Or more specifically, which upper back muscles do you think insert upon the radius and or ulna?

In the interests of civility I'll resist the temptation to answer that with a simple 'fuck off'. I have no desire to get into an argument about what is, as you say, merely an opinion, albeit a little more informed than you seem to think. It appears that in my attempt to keep things simple I have gone a little too far for your liking, although how the fuck you took certain things from my post I have no idea.

By the muscles of the upper back I would have thought it was obvious that I meant those muscles of the upper back involved in a pull-up. Please tell me you don't want a list. And which bit of my post gave the impression that I think any of these muscles might attach to the bones of the forearm?!

As I'm sure most people on here already know, individual muscle recruitment in this and most other movements depends on a number of factors, in this case including the hand position. Internally/externally rotating the humerus will affect recruitment of the upper back muscles and pec major, while pronation/supination will affect recruitment of the individual elbow flexors. When I talked about a 'unit' I simply meant looking at the overall contribution of the various muscles involved, so while the biceps may work harder with a supinated grip, the lats with a pronated grip and pec major with a close grip, my belief is that a neutral grip just outside shoulder width provides the best combination. I can't say it with any certainty, and differences are likely to be small, but that's just how I see it. This is a pointless argument anyway as, in all likelihood, a variety of hand positions is probably ideal; if there is a best one, it'll only be the best for a short time.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Is it possible that my biceps are just weaker than my other two elbow flexors and so neutral-grip is easier than supinated? Even when my workout was mainly curls and push ups as a teenager I would always do hammer curls and I would use the neutral grip on the pull up bar I had at home.

Stef points out that the main advantage is probably mechanical: a neutral grip results in a chest position during the movement much closer to the bar, i.e. a shorter moment arm between shoulder and grip. She is much smarter than I am, and possibly pays closer attention to pullup mechanics.