Gaining strength with Minimal Muscle Hypertrophy

[Steve Hill]

Every year as a track cyclist, I got faster - and was a better racer in ALL races I did. I also got stronger and heavier. Funny how that worked.

[cpbellavia]

Why do you think that VO2 max decreases during strength training?

I'll correct myself here. I would say it's a general endurance drop off if you strength train but ignore anaerobic conditioning (prowler style stuff). That's just based on my own experience. SS is not enough to keep me "in shape". BUUUUT. I'm guessing I'm wrong in calling in v02 max. It probably has more to do with lactate tolerance and that system. Right?

[Lionheart]

I’m a firefighter as well and have to admit my conditioning is sub par, I don’t do any when I should. Since I have started strength training I have gained about 50lbs, all my lifts have gone up considerably but notice I get winded a lot more and was wondering if by using the prowler what would be the best way to use it for my job? I don’t know much about conditioning and was thinking of using Matt Reynold’s “STRONG” method where you use the heart rate monitor, or using the MMA version and pushing it for minutes.

For conditioning should I focus on keeping my max heart rate up for as long as possible? Humping hose and going up flights of stairs with all the equipment takes everything out of you, and then while you are fighting the fire, you also overhaul where you are chopping into walls for minutes looking for fire extension. I know my heart rate is up there for a while, when doing all this. This made me think doing tabata training with a sledgehammer and hitting the tire as long as possible would help me too.

What type of conditioning would help me out the most while still allowing me to make progress in the strength game? I’m think the “Strong” method that would help me out the most. What do you experts think? thanks

[MRP]

So the question becomes: what about #2 prohibits the increase in LBM? What about being bigger and stronger makes you think that it can't be done at a high level of conditioning?

Rip I totally agree with this statement. I am just personally trying to come up with good hard facts to counter the current thinking of the fire service around me. No matter what my opinion doesn't matter because I'm a rookie, but if I can convince a senior firefighter of these methods, then in turn he can bring it up and start influencing the department for the good of everyone.

I'd say the 5'10" guy is more useful at 215, 15% bodyfat. He'll be much stronger. You've got to kick the CF habit, lentzner.

Rip that is what I'm going to be shooting for as far as composition. Right now I'm currently 5'10", 236 and probably 25-30% bodyfat. I had a short run at starting strength in late 09 early 10. Then the long process of getting hired and the testing involved threw that off. My previous job was sedentary and a sales role so I am actually down in weight around 25lbs. I currently do fairly well with air consumption but do need to do more conditioning, but I also see every training drill where I have to get stronger as well. The person in our departement that is the most influential as far as strength training is more into bodybuilding excercises and rep-schemes (which I hate).

My thinking was along what you have been proposing anyways. Do a run at starting strength to maximize the novice gains while watching my diet so that I can get all the gains possible and while not adding more fat. Then switching to something along the lines of 3 Reps x 5 sets with high conditioning. For me getting the strength gains without compromising them with too much condtioning during the novice phase is the most important.

Now, if you're in a situation where there is literally a limited amount of free oxygen (such as locked in an airtight room for an extended period of time), then the excess oxygen consumption that comes from being bigger might be an issue. But, considering how unlikely of a situation that is, the benefits of being bigger AND stronger far outweigh the risks.

This is literally the case every single time we enter a fire. We have a limited amount on our backs in the air cylender. If we do not get out of the IDLH atmosphere while we still have air we are dead.

With what has been said Like I have posted novice gains followed by conditioning is the best approach. In your training experience after the strength has been developed is there any vailidity to high reps, low weight, for training muscular endurance?

[Peter_k]

Rip,

There's obviously more than a grain of truth to the idea that people can gain "neural strength" without putting on muscle mass. But how strong do people really get in the real world without gaining at least some muscular bodyweight?

For example, would it be realistic for someone to take their deadlift from 350 lbs to 450 lbs without gaining any muscle? I mean, there's something to be said for getting lots of practice on a given lift ("greasing the groove") but the real-world examples of people gaining large amounts of strength over the long term purely through neural adaptation are non-existent from what I've seen.

[poplawsj]

Having been a Career Firefighter (admittedly for a short time) I have a couple things to say here.

1. the number one factor in real life affecting how long your air supply lasts is you're attitude and breathing controle. I have seen HUGE 225+ lbs. veterans who stayed fit make their air last way longer and acomplish way more on the fire ground than the fresh 170 lbs. pound rookie who had the training class record for making his SCBA last the longest (incidently he loved to run marathons). With that said the worst guy is always the one who's a fatass, I don't mean fat as in he's got no six pack and wears greater than size 36 pants i mean i can't see my own dick fat! don't be that guy!

Learn and practice controled breathing. Learn to rebreath. keep that mask on untill it sucks to your face and you start to gray out (have some one watch you incase you pass out). Subway drills are Fucking AWSOME!

2. My gear alone without any tools or SCBA weighed 55 lbs. The SCBA's weighed eather 23 lbs. or 45lbs. (for the Tower guys) and these where the lightweight fiber glass ones which was just the cylinder. add to this your door chalks, Pliers, Wire Cutters, Spanners, Flashlights, and tools and your easily carrying over 110 lbs. on your body.

3. Everyboyd, I mean EVERYBODY that I know who's good at their Job is big, everyone from my training class gained weight and the only skinny guys are the paramedics who don't get alot of fire supression time. I've never seen a female officer who wasn't svelt (in a Hot way) or didn't become svelt after getting promoted. It's not just having muscle eather. Having an extra 20 or 30 pounds of mass to through into pulling that 2" or holding it when it's flowing (ever see a guy under 190 pounds try and controle a 2" line by himself? it's fucking hilariouse!).

The number one physical quality a Firefighter needs work capacity. With that said Strength is the base for increasing all other physical qualities, it is the raw material from which all others are forged. Throwing a 24' ladder is fucking easy after you've been practicing with a 28'! (and honestly throwing a 28' by yourself should be easy as hell it's self).

Strength train first then finish your workout with some conditioning such as Prowler Pushes, Sled or dumby drags or intervals but your workout should always be only supplimental to putting your gear on and practicing drills!

[Mark Rippetoe]

According to Casey Butt, getting to 215@15% without steroids would be pretty challenging for an average person. Maybe you don't think much of his work, but it seems legit to me.

I don't know Mr. Butt or his work. We take people to 215 @ 15% bodyfat all the time. Shall we ask the reading hordes to confirm this?

I'll correct myself here. I would say it's a general endurance drop off if you strength train but ignore anaerobic conditioning (prowler style stuff). That's just based on my own experience. SS is not enough to keep me "in shape". BUUUUT. I'm guessing I'm wrong in calling in v02 max. It probably has more to do with lactate tolerance and that system. Right?

That has not been the experience of most people. Have you looked at the discussion threads attached to the military articles in here? http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/articles

I’m a firefighter as well and have to admit my conditioning is sub par, I don’t do any when I should. Since I have started strength training I have gained about 50lbs, all my lifts have gone up considerably but notice I get winded a lot more and was wondering if by using the prowler what would be the best way to use it for my job?

What would you say your endurance was like at about the 25-30 pounds of weight gain-level?

With what has been said Like I have posted novice gains followed by conditioning is the best approach. In your training experience after the strength has been developed is there any vailidity to high reps, low weight, for training muscular endurance?

None. Strength comes from 5s, conditioning comes from lactate-threshold work like the Prowler.

Rip,

There's obviously more than a grain of truth to the idea that people can gain "neural strength" without putting on muscle mass. But how strong do people really get in the real world without gaining at least some muscular bodyweight?

For example, would it be realistic for someone to take their deadlift from 350 lbs to 450 lbs without gaining any muscle? I mean, there's something to be said for getting lots of practice on a given lift ("greasing the groove") but the real-world examples of people gaining large amounts of strength over the long term purely through neural adaptation are non-existent from what I've seen.

Obviously correct. The stress produces an adaptive response, which is multi-factored. How would you apply the stress in a way that only produced a neural adaptation when the muscles' mass also receives the same stress and responds with hypertrophy?

[mlentzner]

I don't know Mr. Butt or his work. We take people to 215 @ 15% bodyfat all the time. Shall we ask the reading hordes to confirm this?

Oh, I don't doubt it. But there's a lot of selection bias going on. Guys with large bodies and short limbs are going to excel in barbell activities. They will also be able to hang more meat on their frames at a given height. We need wrist and ankle measurements as well as just height to get a good accounting.

Just perusing the stats for NFL players, the only guys with that body type are the running backs. You have wide receivers and corner backs who are built much lighter - more along the lines of my numbers. The safeties are a bit bigger, but not up to running back levels. Those are the guys that have to cover a lot of ground, be quick and agile, as well as block and tackle. In my opinion their jobs are less specialized and more like 'real life'.

Casey Butt looked at bodybuilders from the pre-steroid era. 215 would be a really large guy then - and certainly taller than 5'10". Of course they were leaner than 10% bf (not a lot, though), but they were tiny by today's standards. And we know that their training back then was more strength oriented since they had to compete in strength sports to get points.

[cpbellavia]

I'll correct myself here. I would say it's a general endurance drop off if you strength train but ignore anaerobic conditioning (prowler style stuff). That's just based on my own experience. SS is not enough to keep me "in shape". BUUUUT. I'm guessing I'm wrong in calling in v02 max. It probably has more to do with lactate tolerance and that system. Right?

That has not been the experience of most people. Have you looked at the discussion threads attached to the military articles in here? http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/articles

...

None. Strength comes from 5s, conditioning comes from lactate-threshold work like the Prowler.

I'm not sure were talking about the same endurance here. I did not mean that doing SS lowered my mile times. I'm talking about running a hill 10 times or sprinting 40-60ms or flipping a tire X amount of times with a set resting time in between sets (and not a very long one). I'm talking about prowler type work.

If all I do for 6 months is 5s with no lactate conditioning then my anaerobic endurance should be the same or better? Are you saying this is the consensus?

That's just not the case for me. I still need to train that system separately to keep gains in both energy systems.

As far as purely aerobic is concerned that takes very little effort to maintain. But the original post was referring to firemen work so I figured he meant the anaerobic system, even if he only mentioned oxygen.

[Tamara Reynolds]

According to Casey Butt, getting to 215@15% without steroids would be pretty challenging for an average person. Maybe you don't think much of his work, but it seems legit to me.

I think this just implies that the average person doesn't like to train hard and/or smart. This is not some ridiculous and unattainable goal.