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Thread: Hip-toe connection

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonerider View Post
    didn't really have a point
    Great. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    There are also muscles which flex the lumbar. And muscles that pronate the feet. Their existence doesn’t mean it’s fine to do either while squatting.

    I think this kind of faulty logic is a result of the creep of fucked up understandings of “functional exercise” and bad evo-/paleo-logic. “Functional” does not always equal “natural”. The quest for a heavy barbell squat produces a shit ton of adaptations that make the body more functional. But a heavy barbell squat is not “natural”. No movement that requires years of training using precise, diligent, and regular programming to achieve is “natural”.

    So just because the body naturally can do [x] is no justification for the safety of doing [x] while squatting.
    I can't remember using the words functional or natural at all. Maybe the creep of fucked up understandings is upon you?

    Squatting toes forward identified some restrictions in my ability to push my knees out which weren't evident when the feet were turned out,.... Hip flexibility, ankle flexibility, whatever... After correcting them my squat movement has improved.

    My point was not about whats functional or natural, but that i don't believe there is anything wrong with a little torsion at the knee at full depth, provided that if a person has avoided this torsion for years and years, they will need to work towards it gradually.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    While Rip and I both have theorized about the IT band, on second thought, I'm not sure. The IT band attaches pretty firmly to the distal end of the femur and essentially plays the role of a ligament at the knee. It seems unlikely that extra stretch on it at the knee joint and anywhere distal to the knee would carry effects upstream.
    It attaches where? Gerdy's tubercle on the tibia as well as sending some slips into the LCL, oblique ligament on the posterior aspect, and even into the lateral margin of the patella. Honestly, I was trying to get a paper published in Clinical Anatomy based on cadaveric dissections to describe the IT band's anatomical characteristics. As it turns out there are so many variations I couldn't begin to organize the data and my funding (read-next to nothing) was absorbed so I didn't continue on with any additional imaging of live patients-trained and untrained. Additionally, this sweet little popliteus muscle has been reported to prevent posterior translation of the tibia by aiding the function of the PCL by 9% with an intact ligament and 36% with a cut ligament. (American Journal of Sports Medicine 1997) . It's main actions, however, are to laterally rotate the femur with the foot in contact with the ground, or medially rotate the femur when the foot is not in contact. I fail to see how this muscle could contribute significantly to a max effort squat significantly in lieu of functioning abductors/external rotators/adductors which all have a much greater mechanical advantage.

    I don't really have much to add other than this toes being more forward position might be appropriate in certain populations with specific anthropometric measurements, but in my practical experience- myself + many clients- a slightly greater toe angle works well.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien Thompson View Post
    Squatting toes forward identified some restrictions in my ability to push my knees out which weren't evident when the feet were turned out,.... Hip flexibility, ankle flexibility, whatever... After correcting them my squat movement has improved.
    In what way has it helped?

  5. #35
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    Loaded rotation of the femur on the tibial plateau is a dynamic Not Intended By Nature. In the Land of the Free, a man can do what he wants with his knees, I guess, but I plan to use mine well into my 12th decade, both for squatting and to provide support for hip drive in divers geriatric variants of the missionary position. To that end, I'll be restricting my loaded knees to flexion and extension, the things they do best, wherever possible. From an anatomical and biophysical perspective, toes forward in the squat is Madness.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    In what way has it helped?
    Squatting toes forward showed up my restrictions, especially in my right hip. It helped by showing me that i was lacking mobility, which now improved, allows me to shove the knees out better, regardless of foot position. Granted, i could've learnt all this with a body-weight (toes forward) squat and continued squatting toes out, but i choose to change to toes forward as an experiment and I now continue to squat toes forward because it feels more stable at the bottom position for me.

    My thought is that for a person squatting 500lbs, they should squat with the same foot position they used during the previous weeks/months/years it took to work up from 300-495lbs with.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien Thompson View Post
    Squatting toes forward showed up my restrictions, especially in my right hip. It helped by showing me that i was lacking mobility, which now improved, allows me to shove the knees out better, regardless of foot position.
    What were the symptoms of this lack of mobility that manifested themselves when you squatted with your feet in natural line with your femurs?

    Granted, i could've learnt all this with a body-weight (toes forward) squat and continued squatting toes out, but i choose to change to toes forward as an experiment and I now continue to squat toes forward because it feels more stable at the bottom position for me.
    Had you continued to squat with no weight -- "unladen" in the Reebokker lexicon -- you would have never gotten strong. You would have been a pussy. So, we're glad you're using a bar now, no matter how you orient your feet. Just out of curiosity, how much do you squat the new way?

    My thought is that for a person squatting 500lbs, they should squat with the same foot position they used during the previous weeks/months/years it took to work up from 300-495lbs with.
    My though is that the process of going from 300 to 495 will teach the vast majority of people that there should be no torsional load on the knee when you squat.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    What were the symptoms of this lack of mobility that manifested themselves when you squatted with your feet in natural line with your femurs?



    Had you continued to squat with no weight -- "unladen" in the Reebokker lexicon -- you would have never gotten strong. You would have been a pussy. So, we're glad you're using a bar now, no matter how you orient your feet. Just out of curiosity, how much do you squat the new way?



    My though is that the process of going from 300 to 495 will teach the vast majority of people that there should be no torsional load on the knee when you squat.
    Feels a little like any other opinion on the matter is seen as a challenge, which i a not doing, I was just trying to add my experiences to this discussion.

    Symptoms when squatting with feet in natural line? None.
    I know taking my squat past 365 with teach me more... I'll check back in when i'm more suitably qualified. Until then i'll be off following Kelly's advice and experimenting cause regardless of what human anatomy or bio-mechanics tells one, i think its hard to really learn or understand a different method without using it.

    Cheers

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien Thompson View Post
    I can't remember using the words functional or natural at all. Maybe the creep of fucked up understandings is upon you?
    I was guessing about a possible explanation for your patently illogical and irrational statement and for the proliferation of that sort of thinking in general. But I'm happy to stop speculating about the influence of shitty paradigms floating around out there and just consider you illogical and irrational for no reason other than your inherent nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by JordanF View Post
    It attaches where? Gerdy's tubercle on the tibia as well as sending some slips into the LCL, oblique ligament on the posterior aspect, and even into the lateral margin of the patella. Honestly, I was trying to get a paper published in Clinical Anatomy based on cadaveric dissections to describe the IT band's anatomical characteristics. As it turns out there are so many variations I couldn't begin to organize the data and my funding (read-next to nothing) was absorbed so I didn't continue on with any additional imaging of live patients-trained and untrained.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16996312
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...5/?tool=pubmed

    Quote Originally Posted by JordanF View Post
    Additionally, this sweet little popliteus muscle has been reported to prevent posterior translation of the tibia by aiding the function of the PCL by 9% with an intact ligament and 36% with a cut ligament. (American Journal of Sports Medicine 1997) . It's main actions, however, are to laterally rotate the femur with the foot in contact with the ground, or medially rotate the femur when the foot is not in contact. I fail to see how this muscle could contribute significantly to a max effort squat significantly in lieu of functioning abductors/external rotators/adductors which all have a much greater mechanical advantage.
    I'm not making any such argument, but perhaps you intended this for Damien.

  10. #40
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