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Thread: Hip-toe connection

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien Thompson View Post
    Until then i'll be off following Kelly's advice and experimenting cause regardless of what human anatomy or bio-mechanics tells one, i think its hard to really learn or understand a different method without using it.
    I agree completely. That's why I did CrossFit for a couple of years, so you'll know my opinion is authoritative. But be careful with your experimentation -- sometimes the results are not positive.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien Thompson View Post
    Squatting toes forward showed up my restrictions, especially in my right hip. It helped by showing me that i was lacking mobility, which now improved, allows me to shove the knees out better, regardless of foot position. Granted, i could've learnt all this with a body-weight (toes forward) squat and continued squatting toes out, but i choose to change to toes forward as an experiment and I now continue to squat toes forward because it feels more stable at the bottom position for me.

    My thought is that for a person squatting 500lbs, they should squat with the same foot position they used during the previous weeks/months/years it took to work up from 300-495lbs with.
    Just curious, by what mechanism are you able to push your knees out with your toes pointed forward?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16996312
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...5/?tool=pubmed

    I'm not making any such argument, but perhaps you intended this for Damien.
    It was meant for him, sorry for the confusion.

    Studies like that are what prompted this "research" since most clinical anatomy references cite Gerdy's tubercle on the tiba as it's main insertion point. The slips into the linea aspera have been characterized by some as a union between the IT band and lateral intermuscular septum, although some maintain that this is inconsistent in it's breadth and pattern so as to be some sort of individualized tissue based on the demands it's placed under. The part going over the lateral epicondyle is where it inserts into the tubercle on the tibia where there is no bursa. Some believe that this friction can occur here and cause inflammation of the knee joint's connective tissue which is richly innervated.

    My opinion? It depends what conditions your knee is accustomed to which alters the morphology of the entire joint-including the IT band. I also have yet to see someone who squats well have ITBFS regardless of their foam roller usage. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program. :-)

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordanF View Post
    Studies like that are what prompted this "research" since most clinical anatomy references cite Gerdy's tubercle on the tiba as it's main insertion point. The slips into the linea aspera have been characterized by some as a union between the IT band and lateral intermuscular septum, although some maintain that this is inconsistent in it's breadth and pattern so as to be some sort of individualized tissue based on the demands it's placed under. The part going over the lateral epicondyle is where it inserts into the tubercle on the tibia where there is no bursa. Some believe that this friction can occur here and cause inflammation of the knee joint's connective tissue which is richly innervated.

    My opinion? It depends what conditions your knee is accustomed to which alters the morphology of the entire joint-including the IT band. I also have yet to see someone who squats well have ITBFS regardless of their foam roller usage. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program. :-)
    Just to be clear, my comment was in response to speculations that the toes forward position would put enough extra stretch on the IT tract (via medial tibial rotation) that the glutes, etc. would find themselves under more tension than in the toes out position, thus making a case for the toes forward position producing a bigger squat. I'm saying this scenario is doubtful, because it's looking unlikely that stretch at the knee joint continues to have effects upstream.

  5. #45
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    So to point out a few things using the diagram I posted previously;

    1. The anthropometry lengths are from google I searched for average male hip width, femur length, shoulder width. I guessed at the foot length.

    2. The distance between the patellas at a toes out 30 degrees per foot stance is 32.25"

    3. The distance between patellas at a 10 degrees per foot stance is 20.18"

    3. I one Squatted with a 10 degree per foot angle at shoulder width the longitudinal axis of the femur would be inside of the center line of the foot.

    4. If one squatted with a shoulder width stance at 10 degrees per foot and pulled the knees out to be as wide as a 30 degree per foot stance the patella would be 6 inches outside of the center line of the foot.

    I submit that it the reason many report that it's easier to keep the knees out with a toes in stance is because their knees are not out as far as they would be with a toes out stance. It is highly unlikely that most anyone squats with their knees 6 inches outside of the center line of their feet. So, of course it's easier to keep the knees out if they are going out 12 inches less at the patellas than the alternative toes out squat. Not to mention that fact that if they somehow were to manage to achieve getting their knees out that far they would have a 20 degrees difference between the foot and femur. That is the scenario that I was picturing, which is why I thought it would place a torque on the knees. Now I think that it is more likely that the people that are squatting as Kelly is advocating are probably only achieving an actual distance between the knees that would be similar to that achieved by a 15 degree foot angle squat. This would place the patella 1.57" outside of the center line of the foot with a 5 degree difference between foot and femur.

    If this is the case, why not squat at 15-20 degree foot angle with parallel foot to femur? You are obviously going to be sacrificing adductor activation for stability by squatting at narrower angles ( if you are able to achieve adequate depth at those angles). I would point out though that stability is a balance and form issue, which can be trained and improved upon at wider foot angles thus sacrificing nothing.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    I agree completely. That's why I did CrossFit for a couple of years, so you'll know my opinion is authoritative. But be careful with your experimentation -- sometimes the results are not positive.
    There is the advantage from learning from other people's mistakes: you don't have to try everything yourself if someone already tried it and found out it's no good. Sometimes that person is wrong, so you have to apply good judgment. Mine says I'll keep squatting with Rip's setup.

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