Goodmornings Goodmornings

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Thread: Goodmornings

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Default Goodmornings

    Hi Coach Rip,

    On page 265 of BBT3, you say, regarding goodmornings, "There will never be a reason to use more than 35% of your squat for sets of 8-10, and there is no reason to do them at all until 35% of your squat is 95 pounds."

    Why do you feel that there is no reason to do them until 35% of one's squat is 95 pounds, which would be a 270-275 lb squat? Could they not help a weaker or newer trainee with strengthening the lower back and hamstrings, which would ultimately benefit the squat?

    For a fairly weak trainee with a 225 squat and deadlift of 315, are there any assistance exercises that you would recommend at all to aid in the development of those two lifts, particularly to strengthen the core, or would you just say to work on those two lifts and don't mess around with assistance exercises until later?

    I am hesitant to add in any assistance because in the book you say, "Any supplemental exercises other than chin-ups should be chosen very carefully so as not to interfere with the progress on these five crucial movements."

    I just feel like my core is weak and it may be holding me back a bit - but I don't know if adding in goodmornings or any other assistance exercises to strengthen the core is a good idea or if it will just hurt my recovery. Maybe squats and deadlifts are enough for the core at this point and they are my core work for now. Just a little confused.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChgoSportsFan View Post
    Why do you feel that there is no reason to do them until 35% of one's squat is 95 pounds, which would be a 270-275 lb squat? Could they not help a weaker or newer trainee with strengthening the lower back and hamstrings, which would ultimately benefit the squat?
    Because goodmornings are an assistance/ancillary exercise, and until linear gains are exhausted on the simple program approach, assistance exercises are not necessary or productive. Just like for the rest of the program. Actually, those numbers are a little liberal, and probebly should be adjusted upwards to a squat of 365. I'll make that correction in the next printing.

    If you have a "core", you've been watching too many infomercials or talking to too many PTs.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Default

    Your lifts are way too small to be considering goodmornings. My lifting partner hit a 410x4 squat PR two weeks ago, and just started adding in ghetto GHR's and some ab wheel work at the end of his volume and intensity Texas Method days. Besides that, its just squats, deadlifts, and cleans.
    Don't over think the program. Once you stall at a given weight, deload 10% and work your way back up.
    One mistake I and others have made on the program is rushing the process, and trying to make the deload phases go by quicker.
    In the grand scheme of the things, this is incredibly immature thinking, because you are still making RAPID strength gains, even if the occasional deload is necessary.
    Regarding your "core", do you not think its gotten stronger when your squat goes from 225 to 245? or 245 to 275?

  4. #4
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    Apr 2010
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    Default

    Rip, I've found these quotes from your "Core" Stability "Training" article very valuable in explaining the core training myth to people who are absolutely convinced they need to do lots of specific work to "strengthen their core" -

    The spine is important, and therefore its stability is important; when the whole system is loaded, the motor and the transmission adapt together at the same time. The entire kinetic chain is developed by barbell training because squats, deadlifts, presses, and the Olympic lifts utilize the entire kinetic chain – and therefore strengthen the entire kinetic chain in the same way you’re going to use it.
    and

    Can you not see that the process by which a 400 lb. squat is acquired develops the ability to stabilize the spine by developing all the muscles that do so in the most functional way it is possible to imagine? That getting strong enough to stabilize the spine while pulling 500 lbs. off the floor strengthens the muscles that stabilize the spine? Do you not understand the magnitude of the task of keeping the spine stable while inserting your body between the bar and the floor during a 200 lb. press? Can you appreciate the dynamic forces that must be controlled while cleaning a 300 lb. bar to the shoulders, and that for an efficient transfer of force from the legs and hips to the bar the spine must be held rigid, and that the “core” muscles do this job? Can you not understand that if your spine is strong enough to do these relatively hard things it’s strong enough to do all the things that are easier? Can you not appreciate the ability of barbell training to precisely adjust the load to the ability of the athlete as he develops his “core” strength, and all her other strengths at the same time? Do you understand the full ROM-nature of correctly performed barbell exercises, and that as a result the full ROM is actually improved while being strengthened at the same time?
    ChgoSportsFan, if you haven't already, definitely read the article: http://startingstrength.com/index.ph...ty_training/P2

  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChgoSportsFan View Post
    Could they not help a weaker or newer trainee with strengthening the lower back and hamstrings, which would ultimately benefit the squat?
    Yes. But so will the squat, which will also ultimately benefit the squat.

  6. #6
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    Apr 2012
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    Default

    Great article.

    All - points taken. I will just do the program and not fuck around. If I can't squat without doing a good morning, then I am obviously using too much weight or using poor technique or a combination of the two. I'll concentrate on getting my squat up and keeping good form while doing so.

    That article made great sense. I guess even though I try, I can't always get away from the nonsense in exercise "science" that is so prevalent nowadays. I gotta stop reading crap on the internet.

  7. #7
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    May 2012
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    Just read Practical Programming and it say in the section talking about "The Novice":

    "Focused abdominal excerces may be the most important assistance movements to include" and also "Back extensions/GHR are very useful for adding extra work on the spinal erectors and hip extensors, as in the RDL"

    Before that it it stated that those assistance movements should only be added once the basic exercies have been "mastered" but back extensions are featured in advanced novice programms as well.

    I know that stages of programming are not set by weight but by # of necessary deload but i can't think of myself reaching a 365 pound squat without reaching at least the advance novice programm / deloading a couple of times

    I'm definitely not trying to include stuff like good mornings into my program, just slightly confused on when to add those back extensions/ab work stuff.

  8. #8
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    Add them carefully, if at all. I am more reluctant these days to add stuff to the basic program than I used to be.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    I am more reluctant these days to add stuff to the basic program than I used to be.
    Really? How come?

    I think part of my problem is that I haven't been resting long enough between sets. I do 3 minutes now and think I might increase it to 4-5.

    Starting with my workout tomorrow, I'm going to increase time between sets and place 100% of my focus where it should be - on the 5 main lifts, not on thinking about whether I need "core" work or not. Fuck that. I need to add plates to my squat and deadlift, not twist my body around like a dipshit while holding a 10 lb kettleball.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChgoSportsFan View Post
    Really? How come?
    Because it's not necessary.

    I think part of my problem is that I haven't been resting long enough between sets. I do 3 minutes now and think I might increase it to 4-5.
    Great idea. Maybe even wait until you're actually recovered from the previous set, huh?

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