Jerks and Push-presses: Quick dip/eccentric or not?

[steven-miller]

Hello Rip,

I have been thinking about this problem. When a lifter is doing a quick dip in the jerk the shoulders are descending quicker then the bar does because in addition to gravity comes the influence of the lifters body shortening due to the bending of the knees and hips. Three things result from that as far as I can see:

1. the bar accelerates in the downfall which results in more force that has to be overcome by the lifter during the amortization phase
2. there is going to be an impact of the bar on the shoulders at which energy is wasted
3. the quick eccentric enforces a more forceful stretch-shortening-cycle (SSC)

Do you agree with this? What do you think follows from those observations and how do you teach the dip these days? My conclusion would be that the shoulders would optimally descent as quickly as the bar does, not slower, so that a SSC is still facilitated, but not quicker, so that the weight does not "crash" onto the shoulders.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I teach a "bounce" instead of a dip. You have to learn how to stay in contact with the bar on the way down, but the jerk is much faster done this way. Perhaps Alex Bussell could comment, since I've recently taught him to dip this way: http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=33679

[steven-miller]

What is the difference between the dip and the bounce? There are two ways I can think of to keep in touch with the barbell:

- do the eccentric just slow enough
- actively pull the barbell down during the eccentric

Which one is used in the bounce?

I wrote a pm to Alex.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Dipping and driving is slower than hitting the bounce and creating a rebound.

[steven-miller]

Dipping and driving is slower than hitting the bounce and creating a rebound.

So far I have been doing the bounce as well focusing on a quick eccentric to elicit that SSC. I have not found a way to prevent an impact of shoulders and barbell at the point of turn-around. However, this technique has so far worked well for me since I can jerk anything that I can clean. I do not think that actively pulling the bar down is the answer, which, in my opinion, means that the "crash" is to some degree inevitable with this technique. However, apart from eliciting a stronger SSC there might be an additional advantage to the bounce technique. The impact might cause a stronger deformation of the barbell which causes it to "jump off" the shoulders helping with the upward drive.

I am curious what Alex will say about his experience with that. I hope he will share his insights as well.

[Tamara Reynolds]

I just started experimenting with this, actually. I have a fairly deep dip and long drive because my strength is the drive and not getting under the bar. But, I took a few training sessions to try a "bounce" instead of a dip and drive. It feels better on lockout for me. I jerk forward (for lots of reasons that I won't go into here, some purposeful and some not), and the bounce really forces me to step my front foot out as fast and as far as possible. That seemed to eliminate some of my forward tendencies on the jerk.

So, I don't know YET. I haven't gotten anything close to a PR with a bounce, but I've only tried it a few times. The 75 kg lift below is probably the heaviest lift with the "bounce," and then my brain went back to my old dip and drive. My last two clean and jerk PRs of 84 and 85 kg were both recently set with my usual dip and drive. But, I think you can see the difference in the bounce versus the dip and drive below for sure. It's something I'd like to work on more.

Here is 75 kg with a "bounce":


Here is 75 kg with a dip and drive where I was not super happy with the jerk (or the clean, haha):


And here is 80 kg with a dip and drive with a decent lockout:

[Mark Rippetoe]

I have not found a way to prevent an impact of shoulders and barbell at the point of turn-around. However, this technique has so far worked well for me since I can jerk anything that I can clean. I do not think that actively pulling the bar down is the answer, which, in my opinion, means that the "crash" is to some degree inevitable with this technique.

My opinion is that it's not usually a problem if it's done correctly, since it hasn't been a problem for all but one or two of the dozens of people I've taught to do it this way. Notice Tamara's second video not being a problem. It may have something to do with your forearm length and your grip width.

[Guts]

I too posed the question to my Olympic coach about actively lowering or just unlocking and letting yourself be lowered by the weight. As I recall he didn't have an answer. Just insisted to dip and drive then squeeze.

I always had trouble with it. It was inconsistent. I would miss jerks I could power clean.

Whilst under the tutelage of my Olympic coach I missed the opening jerk of my last competition before moving to WI:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scTZHqUYl40#t=1m10s

I missed the 3rd jerk too.

Here is a jerk video from the SS seminar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-85xSInmWo

I have a picture in my head of the bar bending on the descent and then getting a huge rebound. I'm trying to create that on every jerk. I'll also say that leading with the heel makes a large difference if you are traditionally a toe guy. I took this technique back with me and coached my training partner to a new jerk PR the first day he learned it.

[Mark Rippetoe]

GUTS is Alex, btw.

[Mr_Rogers]

I've also been coached using the dip & drive technique which produced inconsistent and frustrating results. Tamara told me about the "bounce" cue which I've been using the past few weeks. I'm not jerking huge waits, but I finally feel like my form is getting more consistent and I'm gaining confidence.

A quick question Rip. I'm pressing and alternating bench/push press (as per Josh Wells) and did push presses for the first time last week. Is it supposed to be a similar setup for the jerk? It was close, but I'm curious if I'd see more benefit if I had my push press setup mirror my jerk setup.

I also stumbled upon Alex's weightlifting thread in the Q&A and I'm slightly disappointed there aren't any plans to release more information on how you'd coach the olympic lifts. I think you (and the SS coaches) do an amazing job coaching the 5 lifts you cover at the seminar.