High intensity prowler conditioning, the somewhat elderly, and heart attacks

[fredfredfred]

Hello,

I wonder if any of the medically minded people on this board could address a concern that my 60 year old doctor father brought up about the prowler, and high intensity conditioning in general.

He said that although it would probably be great for me (29), no one past middle age should use it because they risk a heart attack. He said for example that although he is constantly running around, snowboarding, and doing things like P90x (haven't managed to get him squatting), he never allows his heart rate to exceed 150, and usually keeps it below 140.

His claim (badly paraphrased by me) is that since the prowler so often gets people to vomit afterwards, it is probably a little too effective at causing ischemia, and therefore probably isn't safe for older people.

Is this a valid concern?

[Mark Rippetoe]

It depends on your medical history, and your exercise history. I think that it is a bad idea to reach a HRmax too often, since it also entails a max respiration rate and causes bronchial problems that may become chronic for some people. And that level of intensity is not necessary for the conditioning effect to occur. Please explain to your father that the prowler can be loaded and programmed to produce varying levels of intensity. Not every workout has to be a near-death experience.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Just gonna leave thishere and here.

But yeah, if you just go out and push until you die you are a fool.

[Paul1]

He said that although it would probably be great for me (29), no one past middle age should use it because they risk a heart attack. He said for example that although he is constantly running around, snowboarding, and doing things like P90x (haven't managed to get him squatting), he never allows his heart rate to exceed 150, and usually keeps it below 140.

I think some parts of P90X, especially PlyoX if he really pushes himself, are just as likely to give you a heart attack as pushing a prowler -- especially given the longer duration of the workouts than most people's prowler sessions. (I would also add that most people who are over 60 can't get their heart rate much above 150 or 160 anyway, so keeping it in the 140-150 range may actually be 90% or more of his max HR).

Age is one -- read that ONE -- risk factor for having a heart attack. The other major risks, like smoking, hypertension, cholesterol, and diabetes, all feed into what an individual person's 1 year and 10 year risk of a heart attack will be. This means that you shouldn't smoke, and that you should make sure you're screened for hypertension, diabetes, etc. It's not sufficient to make a prescription about all people over 60.
Some people who have a lot of risk factors, aside from modifying those risks, are going to end up having one of two types of 'stress test'. One kind is the kind the doctor orders. The other is the stress test of living life and seeing what happens. If you gradually increase exercise intensity, and you tolerate it, then you're passing your own stress test of coronary artery disease.ter.

[Nic Lane]

I like Reynolds' heart rate monitor protocol for the prowler targeting 95% during the intervals. Do you see any issue with a healthy 44 year old guy hitting that target on a weekly basis? I like programming the prowler that way but wonder if you'd recommend hitting a slightly lower max HR target.

[jillingworth]

...His claim (badly paraphrased by me) is that since the prowler so often gets people to vomit afterwards..

This is like drinking and binge eating. If you are doing so much that you have to vomit, you're doing something wrong.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

His claim (badly paraphrased by me) is that since the prowler so often gets people to vomit afterwards, it is probably a little too effective at causing ischemia, and therefore probably isn't safe for older people.

Is this a valid concern?

Concern is always valid, if not always justified. The reason the prowler gets people to vomit is because it produces a rapid accumulation of blood lactate. Which is part of the point. The actate elevation does not result in this case from "ischemia," but from a massive uptick in anaerobic glycolysis in the muscle beds.

This is not to say that the extraordinary metabolic demands of prowling (or any other intense activity) will not challenge the myocardium. That, again, is part of the point. And prowling certainly presents a certain level of risk to an individual with coronary artery disease. As do weight lifting, running, gardening and fucking. And of course, you can get a heart attack sitting on the couch, watching (and being) The Living Dead.

My guess is that the first reported prowler fatality will involve getting run over by truck. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Nobody gets out alive.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I like Reynolds' heart rate monitor protocol for the prowler targeting 95% during the intervals. Do you see any issue with a healthy 44 year old guy hitting that target on a weekly basis? I like programming the prowler that way but wonder if you'd recommend hitting a slightly lower max HR target.

Did you try it, and did you live?

[Aleksandr28]

1. Training at near max heartrate all the time is something that is never recommended.

2. If you are "training" your cardio, you should be ramping your way up to those higher levels. Seriously. If a n00b walked into the squat rack, tossed on 400 lbs, and then was severely injured when he tried to get the weight off the rack... Would people take that to mean "squats are dangerous!"??? Well, why is this same broken logic applied to cardio?

3. Considering number 2 above; THIS is why there are so many heart attacks every hunting season and winter time.

Hunting season usually has plenty of older folks (or younger folks) that are not in good aerobic condition because they do not train for such strenuous activities........... and they go hiking through the woods with their gun or trying to climb a tree for a tree stand and POW heart attack.

Winter season gets the same when some out-of-condition person heads out with their snow shovel to clear the sidewalks and driveway. They are not in good aerobic condition, they are not used to that level of strenuous activity, and they don't know how to pace themselves during such activities. Invariably, some of them end up overtaxing the heart, and have cardiac arrest.

Again, this is not the fault of snow shoveling or hunting. It's the result of lack of training.

And you can puke your guts out on any strenuous activity if you overextend yourself because you didn't train your way up, you overestimated your capacity, and you underestimated the work level.

[Nic Lane]

Did you try it, and did you live?

So far, so good. If the prowler kills me, I'll let you guys know