Clarification for the BJJ population

[Joe Murphy]

...my desire to get strong for BJJ is how I found SS. I went back to the gym 6 months later thinking to myself, "Well this is going to be ugly." I ending up rolling with a lot of guys who'd been promoted in that time. I ended up dominating all the rounds against guys who'd been training continuously. All I'd done was get a little stronger and heavier.

There it is, then. Probably a little long for a tee shirt, but still...

[veryhrm]

[re my post #21: please ignore the bolding in the quoted message. That was intended to be part of a line of argument that was abandoned. ]

[Mark Edward]

I've been training for strength and BJJ for some time, and I have some input that may be useful.

First, you absolutely can increase your strength while training jiu-jitsu relatively hard - in about three years of doing both, I've taken my squat from the low 400s to 585 while spending 10 hours a week on the mat. It's not difficult, you just need to use your head a little bit and listen to your body.

Second, balance is everything. How much do you care about competitive jiu-jitsu? Really think hard about it, because when you answer this question, you'll know how to divide your efforts.

Third, getting stronger will absolutely make you fight better in tournaments. No question about it. But if you're using your new strength to beat up your buddies while you're rolling, then you don't understand the point of rolling and you're being a dick. Rolling is for getting better, not winning. Make sure you understand the difference and don't be a dick to your buddies. Your academy is the place to get better, and tournaments are the place to win.

[Nick Delgadillo]

This says that "someone", in context meaning a moderately serious MA person, COULD do the program while grappling 5 times a week if only the eat and sleep enough.
Do you actually believe this to be the case? I'm guessing you don't because it's at odds w/ the rest of your message, but it is just these kinds of statements that cause the confusion that OP is talking about (and also how people end up being 5' 8" 220lbs w/ a 225lbs squat thinking they need to eat more).

I don't think it's at odds with the rest of my message at all. I've seen this work, although very rarely, because most adults have too much life going on to make it work. Usually the younger guys who are in college or working part time and living w/ mom and dad can certainly do it. The reality for most people is that life is not subsidized by parents/family and they're not payed to train so accommodations have to be made for adequate recovery.

[Mark E. Hurling]

It's a balancing act that you have to do on a 3 legged stool if you lift and do MA. The other leg is rest and recovery, something I have to monitor closely at 63. I practice a self defense form of jujitsu that is non-competitive so there's that difference. On the other hand I started competing in powerlifting this year and the stresses of my lifting began to overshadow my MA practice of 2 1/2 hour sessions twice a week. When I wasn't too whacked or otherwise boogered up from the iron, then maybe less. Then there's twice a week conditioning sessions as well to make sure the old ticker stays sound. So rest is a big deal, and at 250+ eating is something with an aging metabolism that has to be approached with care. If you're younger, this will be obviously less of an issue, if any.

I can't speak for others, but lifting has made me tight(er). But then I was tight and stiff as a teen in football too. So keeping the hamstrings and shoulders from getting constricted at a minimum can be important. On the other hand, even the lower to mid ranking black belts have a hard time trying to move me, throw me, stop me as I execute a technique, or dealing with me in general. Other means have to be resorted to like a couple of strikes to distract me or loosen me up. And I'm the 2nd oldest guy in that dojo. The down side is that my shoulders, fingers, and wrists are susceptible to joint locks and barring techniques since their range of motion is limited. I also get a fair amount of (good natured?) commentary about how I should spend more time refining technique and less getting strong. Which is funny in it's own way, since I have been careful to only try to get close to using 75% of my full capacity on the mat.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

What's your issue, yo? To borrow a favorite phrase of yours, your reading comprehension isn't usually this bad.

You're right. Your constant harping on the horrors of people supposedly getting fat instantly annoys me and makes me not want to take what you say seriously. I'm having particular difficulty understanding the connection you make here:

This says that "someone", in context meaning a moderately serious MA person, COULD do the program while grappling 5 times a week if only the eat and sleep enough.
Do you actually believe this to be the case? I'm guessing you don't because it's at odds w/ the rest of your message, but it is just these kinds of statements that cause the confusion that OP is talking about (and also how people end up being 5' 8" 220lbs w/ a 225lbs squat thinking they need to eat more).

First, I don't recall that Nick is in the habit of saying things he doesn't mean.

Second, what was your point? That because some people are stupid about diet, Nick should go out of his way to issue ultra-hyper-disclaimers, lest every grappler reading these boards takes his statement to mean that they can grapple 5 times/week while doing SS if they eat an extra cheeseburger and only go out late 2x/week?

The parenthetical statement about fat guys is not about mediumcore or more MA guys (who are highly unlikely to ever get that fat, as you testify) but about the more traditional novice overfat issue when "eat through plateaus" is applied by people who are already 25+% bf and not very strong. Yes, contrary to policy, i know, but it happens.

I used to shoot regularly with a women's shooting group in the city. If I stayed away for a certain length of time, I'd have to re-take their little safety class before going on the range. Every damn time, the instructors would say, VERY clearly, REPEATEDLY that you should always treat a firearm as if it were loaded and never, ever point it at anyone. "SO PLEASE", they would say when handing out rifles for the hands-on part of the instruction, "WHEN YOU RECEIVE YOUR RIFLE, MAKE SURE YOU HOLD IT LIKE SO (instructor holds rifle at his side with barrel pointing up at the ceiling and end of barrel higher than his shoulder)." Without fail, there would always be a couple people in the class who, upon receiving their rifles, would immediately lay them down on their chairdesks so that they were pointing directly at the instructor or at a neighboring attendee. And there was always at least one person who pointed the thing at her own face in passing while examining it.

Some people are stupid and don't listen carefully. No matter how much fear trolling you or anyone else does about "fatfucking", there will be people who are stupid and don't listen carefully and decide to do GOMAD and eat sheet cakes entire even though they're not skinny young guys. 1) I'm pretty sure Rip could write a couple dozen more clarification articles about it, and some people would still be stupid and not listen carefully, 2) non-obese people getting a little pudgy during novice progression isn't the most catastrophic thing ever, certainly not worthy of the extent of your hypervigilance about it, and 3) people not eating enough is by far the more common problem around here.

[Joe Tandy]

people not eating enough is by far the more common problem around here.

And not reading the books/existing articles is the MOST common problem.

[veryhrm]

You're right. Your constant harping on the horrors of people supposedly getting fat instantly annoys me and makes me not want to take what you say seriously.

Previously you've said that any mention of bf% puts you to sleep and that you ignore it whenever it comes up. What then makes you think that you actually know what i say about the topic? If you looked at what i actually said you'd note that my statements are basically in line with "A Clarification" ( which i often just point to) and less strict than Jordan's. Nowadays i just point at "to be a beast" or Jordan's forum. Also, just for fun, i'll note that you used the word "fatfuck" twice in this thread so far. I can't guarantee i've never used it but i generally don't. You also managed to mention your (former?) abz :-D

< ignored a bunch of stuff because there's no point >

I used to shoot regularly with a women's shooting group in the city. If I stayed away for a certain length of time, I'd have to re-take their little safety class before going on the range. Every damn time, the instructors would say, VERY clearly, REPEATEDLY that you should always treat a firearm as if it were loaded and never, ever point it at anyone. "SO PLEASE", they would say when handing out rifles for the hands-on part of the instruction, "WHEN YOU RECEIVE YOUR RIFLE, MAKE SURE YOU HOLD IT LIKE SO (instructor holds rifle at his side with barrel pointing up at the ceiling and end of barrel higher than his shoulder)." Without fail, there would always be a couple people in the class who, upon receiving their rifles, would immediately lay them down on their chairdesks so that they were pointing directly at the instructor or at a neighboring attendee. And there was always at least one person who pointed the thing at her own face in passing while examining it.

A good example. What happened next ? Let me see if i can guess: The instructor didn't say anything and waited until one of these people shot themselves or someone else on the range. Because they deserved to die and/or go to jail because they didn't listen to him and besides if he'd repeated himself they'd never learn. That's how it went down, right?

Some people are stupid and don't listen carefully. No matter how much fear trolling you or anyone else does about "fatfucking", there will be people who are stupid and don't listen carefully and decide to do GOMAD and eat sheet cakes entire even though they're not skinny young guys. 1) I'm pretty sure Rip could write a couple dozen more clarification articles about it, and some people would still be stupid and not listen carefully, 2) non-obese people getting a little pudgy during novice progression isn't the most catastrophic thing ever, certainly not worthy of the extent of your hypervigilance about it, and 3) people not eating enough is by far the more common problem around here.

Some people i tell to eat more. Some people i suggest they lose fat. Most i don't say anything to. You know... it depends on context. It's a pretty simple state machine largely in line w/ the Clarification article. Go ahead and try to find these messages you imagine exist where i'm saying scandalous things or even something where you'd give markedly different advice. (and i don't mean in my discussion with Callador since that's just a discussion. He's in no danger of being corrupted by me, i assure you.)

Rather than trying to diagram this again, let me ask you this: What do you think OP's message #15 means? To me it seems he understood exactly what i was saying.

[Joe Pears]

I have decided to run SS quickly and once I hit some basic numbers I will be jumping onto 5/3/1.

I want to hit a 225lbs on bench press and squat 350lbs on deadlift and get close to bodyweight on my press.

All I am looking for is a basic level of strength. Not to be some strong ass powerlifter.

Once I hit basic numbers I can go onto a long term 5/3/1 and spend the next 10 years building up my strength steadily. The most helpful thing about buying Starting strength was the form, I was doing the big arch powerlifting squat beforehand and now i am using real form and working a full range of motion. Plus my squat is now great compared to the horrible squat they taught me at the gym.

[Travis Rask]

Rip do you have any guys from Red River BJJ come to WFAC for training? Because they should.

If someone were asking me, I'd say it'd better to be ridiculously strong and drill like crazy vs. doing a lot of rounds. From the BJJ perspective, you don't need a lot of CV conditioning if you pass someone's guard and have a dominant top game. I became burned out on BJJ mainly because I'd lost a lot of weight and became very very weak. I was having trouble with lower belts simply because they were strong enough to overcome my experience. I just quit going to class. I starting lifting weights and gaining some weight/strength, in fact, my desire to get strong for BJJ is how I found SS. I went back to the gym 6 months later thinking to myself, "Well this is going to be ugly." I ending up rolling with a lot of guys who'd been promoted in that time. I ended up dominating all the rounds against guys who'd been training continuously. All I'd done was get a little stronger and heavier.

So from my perspective, at the white/blue belt ranks, you be way better off focusing on strength and technique while allowing yourself enough recovery time so that you can keep gains.

Very interesting points.

I've wanted to venture into BJJ for awhile now; I think the mental toughness benefits would translate very well over to my job (fireman).

I've been working with Jordan for 4 months now, and based on the above (and other prior related posts) I think I'm going to wait another year and get my squat above 500 before diving in. I'd rather get really strong without any distractions first.