Clarification for the BJJ population

[Joe Pears]

Hey mark, I was wondering if you could provide some clarification on your opinion on using the novice program while training in jiujitsu. You said that for someone training intensely 5-6 days a week grappling the program would not be able to be done in conduction as recovery would not be achievable.

However, most BJJ guys have branched out from the battle ropes circuit stuff and lots of them consider your program and wendlers the type we should be doing. Your explanation that training and exercise were different things is something starting to gain a lot of credence and is starting the slow death of the bosu ball.

So could you provide a concrete answer from your lips as to how much jiujitsu or MMA or wrestling, Judo, Kickboxing etc on can do while being able to do your program and actually expect good results?

For example would three lifting days a week, three BJJ sessions a week while consuming 3-4500 calories be ok, this question is asked on every jiujitsu and MMA forum and we never have an authoritative answer from yourself.

I hear guys who train 6 days a week and barely eat say they are doing SS and end up giving it a bad name or guys just asking if they should do it and how much grappling to do while they do it.

We need clarification coach.

[Mark Rippetoe]

First, what do you mean by "in conduction"?

[Joe Pears]

First, what do you mean by "in conduction"?




Hey mark, I was wondering if you could provide some clarification on your opinion on using the novice program while training in jiujitsu. You said that for someone training intensely 5-6 days a week grappling the program would not be able to be done in addition as recovery would not be achievable.

However, most BJJ guys have branched out from the battle ropes circuit stuff and lots of them consider your program and wendlers the type we should be doing. Your explanation that training and exercise were different things is something starting to gain a lot of credence and is starting the slow death of the bosu ball.

So could you provide a concrete answer from your lips as to how much jiujitsu or MMA or wrestling, Judo, Kickboxing etc on can do while being able to do your program and actually expect good results?

For example would three lifting days a week, three BJJ sessions a week while consuming 3-4500 calories be ok, this question is asked on every jiujitsu and MMA forum and we never have an authoritative answer from yourself.

I hear guys who train 6 days a week and barely eat say they are doing SS and end up giving it a bad name or guys just asking if they should do it and how much grappling to do while they do it.

We need clarification coach.

My bad.

[Nick Delgadillo]

There has to be a distinction made between guys and gals who just "do" JiuJitsu/MMA/WhateverElse and guys and gals who compete. If a person is a competitive fighter, then they should program just like any other athlete competing in a sport. That means there will be times when they're focusing on strength and times that they'll be practicing skill. What the current focus is depends on the timing of the next event.

Someone who grapples 5 days a week will have a hell of a time doing the program unless they're willing to eat and sleep enough to recover. What's wrong with taking 3 to 4 months and doing the JiuJitsu or MMA class once or twice a week instead of every day? The answer is not a goddamn thing and at the end of those 3 to 4 months, you'll be a stronger, better conditioned, tougher fighter than if you fucked around with a little bit of lifting here and there to supplement the grappling stuff.

Once someone gets past the manic phase of martial arts training and starts to look for ways to not get their ass kicked anymore or be in better shape, I'll tell them to cut the MA training down (GASP!!!) to a couple of days a week and run a linear progression. Most folks are surprised that they perform better in their grappling/sparring even though they're not "doing cardio". Once that person is ready for an intermediate program, they'll add more of the MA training back in and adjust as necessary if they decide to compete.

It's hard to get fighters and martial arts types to understand how much of an impact strength will have on their performance on the mat. Everyone wants to act like it's the secret unattainable black belt knowledge that will make you a beast on the mat, but the reality is that there is NOTHING you can do in the short amount of time that I'll ask you to just lift that will increase your performance more than getting strong. We've all had to grapple with the dude who just walked in the gym from working on the farm for half his damn life and is strong as shit- maybe wrestled in high school- but hasn't spent a day in a JiuJitsu or MMA class and we all know how difficult it is to deal with someone like that. The point is, the strength will persist and will affect your output on the mat. As your skill level improves, you can apply that strength more effectively.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I have nothing to add to Nick's remarks. Specific questions?

[Joe Pears]

There has to be a distinction made between guys and gals who just "do" JiuJitsu/MMA/WhateverElse and guys and gals who compete. If a person is a competitive fighter, then they should program just like any other athlete competing in a sport. That means there will be times when they're focusing on strength and times that they'll be practicing skill. What the current focus is depends on the timing of the next event.

Someone who grapples 5 days a week will have a hell of a time doing the program unless they're willing to eat and sleep enough to recover. What's wrong with taking 3 to 4 months and doing the JiuJitsu or MMA class once or twice a week instead of every day? The answer is not a goddamn thing and at the end of those 3 to 4 months, you'll be a stronger, better conditioned, tougher fighter than if you fucked around with a little bit of lifting here and there to supplement the grappling stuff.

Once someone gets past the manic phase of martial arts training and starts to look for ways to not get their ass kicked anymore or be in better shape, I'll tell them to cut the MA training down (GASP!!!) to a couple of days a week and run a linear progression. Most folks are surprised that they perform better in their grappling/sparring even though they're not "doing cardio". Once that person is ready for an intermediate program, they'll add more of the MA training back in and adjust as necessary if they decide to compete.

It's hard to get fighters and martial arts types to understand how much of an impact strength will have on their performance on the mat. Everyone wants to act like it's the secret unattainable black belt knowledge that will make you a beast on the mat, but the reality is that there is NOTHING you can do in the short amount of time that I'll ask you to just lift that will increase your performance more than getting strong. We've all had to grapple with the dude who just walked in the gym from working on the farm for half his damn life and is strong as shit- maybe wrestled in high school- but hasn't spent a day in a JiuJitsu or MMA class and we all know how difficult it is to deal with someone like that. The point is, the strength will persist and will affect your output on the mat. As your skill level improves, you can apply that strength more effectively.

It is mostly people who just train and are not professional or amateur MMA fighters on most boards inquiring. The standard recommendation on many of them seems to be either structure it like this:

Monday - 1 hour technique class - 1 hour sparring
Tuesday - Novice program - mobility work
Wednesday - 1 hour technique class - 1 hour sparring
Thursday - Novice program - mobility work
Friday - 1 hour technique class - 1 hour sparring
Saturday - Novice program - mobility work
Sunday - rest or mobility work

General advice is just to eat all red meat, poultry, milk, rice and pasta in sight and get tonnes of sleep.

Or follow 5/3/1 and make much slower progress, but seeing as I am only squatting my bodyweight it seems like a far too advanced program for me to be following.

For the last few weeks I have just been getting my form down and I have been out of any training with an injury that has only just fully healed. I want to make sure my return will be a productive one and not something that just leads me to spinning my wheels while the high rep circuit crap did.

At the least I would like to grapple 3 days a week, otherwise I could not justify the money I pay. And while getting strong is something I see as desirable, getting better at the sport i like to do is the main reason for desiring it.

[Nick Delgadillo]

while getting strong is something I see as desirable, getting better at the sport i like to do is the main reason for desiring it.

These are intimately related, especially for the not particularly gifted. I explained an optimal situation for a grappler who wants to get stronger. Anything different will be suboptimal, so you'll have to decide if that's ok for you or not.

[Joe Pears]

These are intimately related, especially for the not particularly gifted. I explained an optimal situation for a grappler who wants to get stronger. Anything different will be suboptimal, so you'll have to decide if that's ok for you or not.

Damn, stop making sense, it is fucking up my initial plans!

You make a good argument I think I will run the novice program for 3 month, then get back to the mats. Thanks for the help. Happy christmas guys.

[veryhrm]

...
Someone who grapples 5 days a week will have a hell of a time doing the program unless they're willing to eat and sleep enough to recover. What's wrong with taking 3 to 4 months and doing the JiuJitsu or MMA class once or twice a week instead of every day? The answer is not a goddamn thing and at the end of those 3 to 4 months, you'll be a stronger, better conditioned, tougher fighter than if you fucked around with a little bit of lifting here and there to supplement the grappling stuff.

...

I'm down w/ the overall advice and i've said the same to several people down in Training and Programming over the past couple of years. However i have a bone to pick with this sentence:
"Someone who grapples 5 days a week will have a hell of a time doing the program unless they're willing to eat and sleep enough to recover. "

This says that "someone", in context meaning a moderately serious MA person, COULD do the program while grappling 5 times a week if only the eat and sleep enough.
Do you actually believe this to be the case? I'm guessing you don't because it's at odds w/ the rest of your message, but it is just these kinds of statements that cause the confusion that OP is talking about (and also how people end up being 5' 8" 220lbs w/ a 225lbs squat thinking they need to eat more).

Let me say how i think most MA people, or indeed any hard charging motivated person, would perceive your message:

"Well, if you actually respect yourself and love freedom it works fine. Now, most people can't cut it. So if you're one of those weak turds who doesn't know how to apply himself and also hates America and his mom, then whatever... just cut some days off your MA training so you could do the program within your limited recovery capacity. People who are frail of body and mind need those kinds of accommodations. "

[DirtyRed]

What's wrong with taking 3 to 4 months and doing the JiuJitsu or MMA class once or twice a week instead of every day?

One would feel like a jackass wearing their TAPOUT t-shirts and beanies if they don't "do BJJ" every day.