Clarification for the BJJ population

[Guppy88]

I don't see how one can't do both. Personally, I do BJJ, karate, JKD, and boxing while lifting 3x a week.

What you're forgetting is that martial arts is heavily dependent on movement patterns, sensitivity, and application. You shouldn't be overexerting yourself when you're rolling or sparring because otherwise you're probably be picking up bad habits.

In addition to this, you should be able to tell you're instructors about your lifting, and I'd imagine they'd understand if you'd have to leave after the third roll.

More isn't always better. If you're doing too many rounds with the mitts or you're rolling until you're throwing up as a novice martial artist I guarantee you're just enforcing terrible form. For me lifting is a good excuse not to push it too hard, and it should be the same for everyone else.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

I'm down w/ the overall advice and i've said the same to several people down in Training and Programming over the past couple of years. However i have a bone to pick with this sentence:
"Someone who grapples 5 days a week will have a hell of a time doing the program unless they're willing to eat and sleep enough to recover. "

This says that "someone", in context meaning a moderately serious MA person, COULD do the program while grappling 5 times a week if only the eat and sleep enough.
Do you actually believe this to be the case? I'm guessing you don't because it's at odds w/ the rest of your message, but it is just these kinds of statements that cause the confusion that OP is talking about (and also how people end up being 5' 8" 220lbs w/ a 225lbs squat thinking they need to eat more).

Let me say how i think most MA people, or indeed any hard charging motivated person, would perceive your message:

"Well, if you actually respect yourself and love freedom it works fine. Now, most people can't cut it. So if you're one of those weak turds who doesn't know how to apply himself and also hates America and his mom, then whatever... just cut some days off your MA training so you could do the program within your limited recovery capacity. People who are frail of body and mind need those kinds of accommodations. "

How the hell would you know? Have you ever trained MA even 2x a week in any school that emphasizes fighting? Do you have first-hand experience of how exhausting any kind of fighting, let alone grappling, is?

Once again, you're so blinded by your overblown fears of "the fatfuck" that you think you need to go out and contradict people who speak from actual experience.

I am 5'2" woman. When I was 30, I trained about 7-9 hours of MA per week with heavy emphasis on fighting and lifted 3 days/week, and I was putting away massive amounts of food. On an average day, I calculated my calories, and they were in the mid 3000s. Now that I know what can be achieved, I realize that I never got all that strong back then. But I did have visible abs during some of that period. If I had to do it over again, I'd do things differently.

My advice would be that if a school is flexible enough, change focus to mostly not too strenuous technical practice if possible so that you can get the most out of reduced sparring time. If the teacher is amenable, cut out any BS calisthenics so many schools feel obligated to put students through.

I don't know that I'd reduce MA sessions to 1 per week, as I don't think that's enough, but change the focus of the sessions. How many you can do depends on how the lesson plan is structured, how long sessions are, how much time the school makes you train your "fitness", etc.

[Adam Skillin]

One would feel like a jackass wearing their TAPOUT t-shirts and beanies if they don't "do BJJ" every day.

My experience has been that people who "do BJJ" beyond the beginner level don't wear TapouT shirts. Unless TapouT pays them to.

[Joe Pears]

I'm down w/ the overall advice and i've said the same to several people down in Training and Programming over the past couple of years. However i have a bone to pick with this sentence:
"Someone who grapples 5 days a week will have a hell of a time doing the program unless they're willing to eat and sleep enough to recover. "

This says that "someone", in context meaning a moderately serious MA person, COULD do the program while grappling 5 times a week if only the eat and sleep enough.
Do you actually believe this to be the case? I'm guessing you don't because it's at odds w/ the rest of your message, but it is just these kinds of statements that cause the confusion that OP is talking about (and also how people end up being 5' 8" 220lbs w/ a 225lbs squat thinking they need to eat more).

Let me say how i think most MA people, or indeed any hard charging motivated person, would perceive your message:

"Well, if you actually respect yourself and love freedom it works fine. Now, most people can't cut it. So if you're one of those weak turds who doesn't know how to apply himself and also hates America and his mom, then whatever... just cut some days off your MA training so you could do the program within your limited recovery capacity. People who are frail of body and mind need those kinds of accommodations. "

I don't know if you are being sarcastic, but I did actually find that little part of his post confusing. If I eat lots of food and sleep 8 hours a night can i do 3 days bjj and the novice program? If not, why say you can only do it if I do everything to recover, which I would.

[Adam Skillin]

If I eat lots of food and sleep 8 hours a night can i do 3 days bjj and the novice program? If not, why say you can only do it if I do everything to recover, which I would.

Maybe. Can you force yourself to train light and just drill when you know the weights are going to be really tough the next day, or does your ego preclude that? Can you attend some classes that are instructional and drilling-based with little or no rolling? It will be really hard to gain the weight you can gain, and the strength that comes with it, so you'll need to eat even more than you think is too much. I'd counsel you to focus on learning technique for several months and forego hard training while you get strong.

That said, I know a few dudes in their early 20's who train 5+ times a week, including some all-rolling, really intense competition team sessions, stay late to roll more without fail, go 100% all the time, and still set PR's in the gym left and right. But most people can't get away with that kind of volume no matter how much attention they pay to recovery.

[Joe Pears]

Maybe. Can you force yourself to train light and just drill when you know the weights are going to be really tough the next day, or does your ego preclude that? Can you attend some classes that are instructional and drilling-based with little or no rolling? It will be really hard to gain the weight you can gain, and the strength that comes with it, so you'll need to eat even more than you think is too much. I'd counsel you to focus on learning technique for several months and forego hard training while you get strong.

That said, I know a few dudes in their early 20's who train 5+ times a week, including some all-rolling, really intense competition team sessions, stay late to roll more without fail, go 100% all the time, and still set PR's in the gym left and right. But most people can't get away with that kind of volume no matter how much attention they pay to recovery.

This is a good distinction. I was thinking of going maybe 1 hour everyday but only doing the 1 hour drilling/ technique class and then leaving. That way I get all the benefits of technique without the exhaustion of rolling.

[DirtyRed]

Wearing tapout for bjj is like wearing a pendlay shirt and doing Texas method.

Unless its free or dirt cheap, don't do it.

Wearing a TAPOUT shirt is like wearing a Miami Heat shirt.

Unless you desire to look like a douchebag, don't do it.

I am 5'2" woman. When I was 30, I trained about 7-9 hours of MA per week with heavy emphasis on fighting and lifted 3 days/week, and I was putting away massive amounts of food. On an average day, I calculated my calories, and they were in the mid 3000s. Now that I know what can be achieved, I realize that I never got all that strong back then. But I did have visible abs during some of that period. If I had to do it over again, I'd do things differently.

How would you do things differently? Less MA and more lifting?

My advice would be that if a school is flexible enough, change focus to mostly not too strenuous technical practice if possible so that you can get the most out of reduced sparring time. If the teacher is amenable, cut out any BS calisthenics so many schools feel obligated to put students through.

What happens when it comes to grappling? Provided whatever MA you're doing actually has grappling, anyway. Frankly, I don't know much more about grappling beyond "Tackle it and figure 4," but I can't think of a way to practice it that isn't exhausting, besides just not practicing it very often.

[FlossOrDie]

Rip do you have any guys from Red River BJJ come to WFAC for training? Because they should.

If someone were asking me, I'd say it'd better to be ridiculously strong and drill like crazy vs. doing a lot of rounds. From the BJJ perspective, you don't need a lot of CV conditioning if you pass someone's guard and have a dominant top game. I became burned out on BJJ mainly because I'd lost a lot of weight and became very very weak. I was having trouble with lower belts simply because they were strong enough to overcome my experience. I just quit going to class. I starting lifting weights and gaining some weight/strength, in fact, my desire to get strong for BJJ is how I found SS. I went back to the gym 6 months later thinking to myself, "Well this is going to be ugly." I ending up rolling with a lot of guys who'd been promoted in that time. I ended up dominating all the rounds against guys who'd been training continuously. All I'd done was get a little stronger and heavier.

So from my perspective, at the white/blue belt ranks, you be way better off focusing on strength and technique while allowing yourself enough recovery time so that you can keep gains.

[veryhrm]

How the hell would you know? Have you ever trained MA even 2x a week in any school that emphasizes fighting? Do you have first-hand experience of how exhausting any kind of fighting, let alone grappling, is?

Once again, you're so blinded by your overblown fears of "the fatfuck" that you think you need to go out and contradict people who speak from actual experience.

I am 5'2" woman. When I was 30, I trained about 7-9 hours of MA per week with heavy emphasis on fighting and lifted 3 days/week, and I was putting away massive amounts of food. On an average day, I calculated my calories, and they were in the mid 3000s. Now that I know what can be achieved, I realize that I never got all that strong back then. But I did have visible abs during some of that period. If I had to do it over again, I'd do things differently.

My advice would be that if a school is flexible enough, change focus to mostly not too strenuous technical practice if possible so that you can get the most out of reduced sparring time. If the teacher is amenable, cut out any BS calisthenics so many schools feel obligated to put students through.

I don't know that I'd reduce MA sessions to 1 per week, as I don't think that's enough, but change the focus of the sessions. How many you can do depends on how the lesson plan is structured, how long sessions are, how much time the school makes you train your "fitness", etc.

What's your issue, yo? To borrow a favorite phrase of yours, your reading comprehension isn't usually this bad.

I'm not claiming that grappling isn't exhausting. Quite the contrary. I'm saying that if you do 5 days of hardcore grappling + SS you would probably not have adequate recovery no matter how much you slept and ate, but my message doesn't even REALLY take a strong position on it, but asks Nick to clarify his position.

My issue was with the potentially misleading "yes, if you eat and sleep enough" sentence buried in the middle of the "no" answer. (The OP helpfully validates my concern in the message shortly after yours)

The parenthetical statement about fat guys is not about mediumcore or more MA guys (who are highly unlikely to ever get that fat, as you testify) but about the more traditional novice overfat issue when "eat through plateaus" is applied by people who are already 25+% bf and not very strong. Yes, contrary to policy, i know, but it happens.

Also, did you miss the part where i said i agree w/ the overall advice? How is that contradictory?

Below is a message i wrote in Feb 2012 apparently. Looks pretty damn similar to what Nick said and what you said (and what Guppy88 said and what Mahogany said) in this thread, don't you think?

SS is simple, but that doesn't mean it's easy. It will absolutely affect recovery. A lot.

If you have to do it "in season" w/ a sport you may find that you start outstripping your recovery capability after only a few weeks. At that point you may want to do it only 2 days a week... or possibly take those 2 workouts and split it into 4 days. However, i'd venture to say that it's still the basic program you likely want to do in the beginning in some form.

In fact, i suggest that if you haven't done significant strength training before and you are not currently a high level competitor that you'd be best off doing SS pretty hard core for 6 or 9 months while cutting back on the volume of conditioning etc you do in practice. You can then get back most of that conditioning back in only a couple of months. So at the end of say 1 year you can either have say 86 units of strength and 85 units of conditioning this way or 30 units of strength and 100 units of conditioning if you only do lifting that won't at all interfere w/ your MA practice.

Also, don't forget to eat. You'll prob have to put on some weight. How much do you weigh and how tall are you? If you're 6' tall and weigh 150 lbs... and want to continue to weigh 150lbs ... SS is not for you (but then neither is any other strength training plan).

[Mark Rippetoe]

Rip do you have any guys from Red River BJJ come to WFAC for training? Because they should.

Not that I am aware. I may have some guys here that train with them, but they don't train with us.