Kettlebell & Barbells... Kettlebell & Barbells... - Page 11

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Thread: Kettlebell & Barbells...

  1. #101
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
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    Spartanburg, SC
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    241

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    My opinion is that you should read the book(s).

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    San Diego, CA
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    14

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    Man I guess I open a can of worms when I started this thread. Sorry if I pissed anyone off.

    -Anthony

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
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    7

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    Dammit, I just lost the post that took me twenty minutes to type. I guess I will have to re-create it again. Please ignore it if the first one went through.

    Look, I think I started on the wrong foot on this forum. If your animosity is caused by my brush reply to hsilman's post - I apologize. Everyone has the right to an opinion and the right to express it.

    I would be grateful if you could give your opinion on how to incorporate strength training into quite intense training for the sport. Some time ago Pavel and Dan John came up with Easy Strength, which I think is a good template, but it requires dicing out extra training sessions. I guess my question is: would it make sense to replace high intensity circuits in my template with the basic strength training scheme, such as 5x5, 3x5 or Texas? The idea behind circuits is to imitate (to a point) the duration and intensity of the competition event, which is 10 minute set of jerks/snatches or C&J.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    630

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    What the Fuck?! Why do people feel the need to overcomplicate things. Here is the deal: I have lost 80 pounds doing nothing more than pressing, squatting, Deadlifting and chins. I have gained over 30 pounds doing nothing more than pressing, squatting, Deadlifting and chins. I made it through cancer while pressing, squatting, Deadlifting and chin ups.

    Last night I pulled 470x5.

    If you want to fuck around because you have a short attention span you are free to do so. Just don't pretend it is for the sake of progress...

    Stop overcomplicating things...

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
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    39,080

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    Quote Originally Posted by Small Dog View Post
    I would be grateful if you could give your opinion on how to incorporate strength training into quite intense training for the sport. Some time ago Pavel and Dan John came up with Easy Strength, which I think is a good template, but it requires dicing out extra training sessions. I guess my question is: would it make sense to replace high intensity circuits in my template with the basic strength training scheme, such as 5x5, 3x5 or Texas? The idea behind circuits is to imitate (to a point) the duration and intensity of the competition event, which is 10 minute set of jerks/snatches or C&J.
    Start here: http://startingstrength.com/resource...624&order=desc

    Read forward.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,993

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    Quote Originally Posted by crookedfinger View Post
    Why do people feel the need to overcomplicate things. Here is the deal: I have lost 80 pounds doing nothing more than pressing, squatting, Deadlifting and chins. I have gained over 30 pounds doing nothing more than pressing, squatting, Deadlifting and chins. I made it through cancer while pressing, squatting, Deadlifting and chin ups.

    Last night I pulled 470x5.

    If you want to fuck around because you have a short attention span you are free to do so. Just don't pretend it is for the sake of progress...
    Brilliant, and quoted by me.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    659

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    Many are thinking exclusively "swings" when they think of kettlebell work. I'm an instructor in the same organization as the men mentioned a few posts ago. I learned how to swing, did swings with enthusiasm and increasing weight until I could do 100 swings in 5 minutes with a 106lb bell. Despite the rhetoric I often heard about "getting strong" with swings, I've never really been comfortable with that definition of "stronger". Will you move better? Yes. Will you see novice gains in strength? Yes. Will you increase your work capacity? Most definitely. But I see why few here view any of that as "strength training" or even "training" as opposed to "exercise". Swings, snatches, and cleans are "ballistics" inside that system and are, as has been said, often done for higher rep conditioning work. However.....there are also grinds. Presses, Get Ups, and squats. If your definition of "training" requires a goal, progressive overload, and a roadmap, any of these three can be defined as "strength training". Will they take you as far as a barbell? No. Is incremental loading possible? Yes, but in such big increments it requires increasing volume at one weight then a jump up to the next. In the Biggie Boy bell sizes from 28ish kilos up, 4 kilo leaps are to be dealt with, but they're also a smaller percentage leap than from 12 to 16. The best programming for low reps with heavy bells comes from Geoff Neupert who uses double kettlebells almost exclusively in his programming. His double clean and press (re-cleaning after each press creates an effect a bit like Press 2.0) program with two 32s is my all time favorite. If I did it again, I'd do it with double 36s. Dave Whitley programmed my work up to a Get Up with a (106 lb) Beast, moving me up from a 32 kilo PR to the 48 in just over two months and just in time to do it on my 50th birthday. I never did more than 1 rep per side then rest 5-10 minutes. I test drove a single-bell pressing program for Pavel in June and July - 8 weeks of nothing but heavy single kettlebell presses in what I can assure everyone was a goal-driven, programmed system. It moved my 1RM from 36 to 40 on my left arm and firmed up my one-day, best ever 40 kilo with my right.
    So while swings may not fit the definition of "strength training", there's a good bit more one can and should do with a kettlebell - preferably a pair of kettlebells. Hell, I'm an instructor and I haven't done a swing since I made the goals of Pavel's "Simple & Sinister" book - 100 one-arm swings in sets of 10 in 5 minutes; then 5 Get Ups per arm in ten minutes, each with the 32 for males. The swing is outstanding for noobs, deconditioned humans, people intimidated by barbells, etc. But I'd be lying if I omitted my opinion that these guys doing these 10,000 swings in a month challenges are wasting their time. If you already deadlift 2x BW....fine. If you can press half your bodyweight in one hand....fine. If you can press a pair of Beasts....okay. Knock yourself out with swing challenges. This is one area where I think Mr. John went badly off the rails when he Pied Pipered a bunch of Impressionables into spending months on this questionable activity.

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    7

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    Great replies. Very informative. Thanks, everyone.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    1,642

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Been View Post
    Many are thinking exclusively "swings" when they think of kettlebell work. I'm an instructor in the same organization as the men mentioned a few posts ago. I learned how to swing, did swings with enthusiasm and increasing weight until I could do 100 swings in 5 minutes with a 106lb bell. Despite the rhetoric I often heard about "getting strong" with swings, I've never really been comfortable with that definition of "stronger". Will you move better? Yes. Will you see novice gains in strength? Yes. Will you increase your work capacity? Most definitely. But I see why few here view any of that as "strength training" or even "training" as opposed to "exercise". Swings, snatches, and cleans are "ballistics" inside that system and are, as has been said, often done for higher rep conditioning work. However.....there are also grinds. Presses, Get Ups, and squats. If your definition of "training" requires a goal, progressive overload, and a roadmap, any of these three can be defined as "strength training". Will they take you as far as a barbell? No. Is incremental loading possible? Yes, but in such big increments it requires increasing volume at one weight then a jump up to the next. In the Biggie Boy bell sizes from 28ish kilos up, 4 kilo leaps are to be dealt with, but they're also a smaller percentage leap than from 12 to 16. The best programming for low reps with heavy bells comes from Geoff Neupert who uses double kettlebells almost exclusively in his programming. His double clean and press (re-cleaning after each press creates an effect a bit like Press 2.0) program with two 32s is my all time favorite. If I did it again, I'd do it with double 36s. Dave Whitley programmed my work up to a Get Up with a (106 lb) Beast, moving me up from a 32 kilo PR to the 48 in just over two months and just in time to do it on my 50th birthday. I never did more than 1 rep per side then rest 5-10 minutes. I test drove a single-bell pressing program for Pavel in June and July - 8 weeks of nothing but heavy single kettlebell presses in what I can assure everyone was a goal-driven, programmed system. It moved my 1RM from 36 to 40 on my left arm and firmed up my one-day, best ever 40 kilo with my right.
    So while swings may not fit the definition of "strength training", there's a good bit more one can and should do with a kettlebell - preferably a pair of kettlebells. Hell, I'm an instructor and I haven't done a swing since I made the goals of Pavel's "Simple & Sinister" book - 100 one-arm swings in sets of 10 in 5 minutes; then 5 Get Ups per arm in ten minutes, each with the 32 for males. The swing is outstanding for noobs, deconditioned humans, people intimidated by barbells, etc. But I'd be lying if I omitted my opinion that these guys doing these 10,000 swings in a month challenges are wasting their time. If you already deadlift 2x BW....fine. If you can press half your bodyweight in one hand....fine. If you can press a pair of Beasts....okay. Knock yourself out with swing challenges. This is one area where I think Mr. John went badly off the rails when he Pied Pipered a bunch of Impressionables into spending months on this questionable activity.
    Pavel had a good quote in the beginning of "Simple & Sinister", "If you are wondering what "strong" is, it is probably not you."

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Canadia
    Posts
    10,477

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    You seem to be a smart guy, normally. Why would you use soreness as an indicator of exercise effectiveness, instead of exercise eccentricity that has not been adapted to?
    A bit late to the party but I wasn't really trying to say it was effective, if anything I was showing that it isn't something that makes for a quick and easy conditioning/recovery tool!

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