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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpg View Post
    The ability of an exercise to improve strength is not dependent only on the weight of the implement but also on the amount of force required to move it through a given range of motion. Just as more force can be produced during a lighter but faster power clean than a slower and heavier dead lift, so too more force can be produced with a lighter KB (approx. 30% of user's body weight according to force plate studies) than with a heavier KB. A KB swing is also an example of a weighted exercise in which the implement does not travel in a straight line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    You don't know what you're talking about. Go away.
    He doesn't? I thought that was the same reason your power clean was always going to be lower than your deadlift. You're making the weight move faster, requiring more force, etc. I mean, the path of the bar is still a straight line up (save for the little curve at the end where it comes to rest on your shoulders illustrated in your book), but you're moving it faster and with more force. Is it something else? I don't have the book in front of me right now, so maybe it goes into more detail and I'm just not remembering correctly. The muscles used for the "shrug" after the "jump" being the limiting factor that keeps the numbers lower than the deadlift maybe?

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Depends on how many reps you can do with it. A guy who can swing a 200 for 20 reps 1.) derives no strength stimulus from doing so, and 2.) didn't get strong enough to swing it 20 reps by swinging a kettlebell.
    Is load the only thing we are arguing about? What if I have a plate-loaded swing handle that can be adjusted to my 5RM (I do)? Is this acceptable in place of cleans? Also, you are right that I got strong primarily with squats and DLs, but why couldn't something like swings work? Does progressive overlaid not apply to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Kettlebell competitions are conducted by counting reps in a time period, like 5 minutes. THINK.
    I'm sorry, but this can't be part of a reasonable argument. People do stupid shit with barbells (crossfit - snatches for time?). Does this make barbells a poor choice?

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita_McJones View Post
    He doesn't? I thought that was the same reason your power clean was always going to be lower than your deadlift. You're making the weight move faster, requiring more force, etc. I mean, the path of the bar is still a straight line up (save for the little curve at the end where it comes to rest on your shoulders illustrated in your book), but you're moving it faster and with more force. Is it something else? I don't have the book in front of me right now, so maybe it goes into more detail and I'm just not remembering correctly. The muscles used for the "shrug" after the "jump" being the limiting factor that keeps the numbers lower than the deadlift maybe?
    Why do you think that more force is required to perform a power clean than a 1RM deadlift?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNussbaum View Post
    Is load the only thing we are arguing about? What if I have a plate-loaded swing handle that can be adjusted to my 5RM (I do)? Is this acceptable in place of cleans? Also, you are right that I got strong primarily with squats and DLs, but why couldn't something like swings work? Does progressive overlaid not apply to them?
    Then why didn't they? More importantly, how do you quantify a 5RM swing, i.e. how do you MISS a 5RM swing? Only do it 4 times?

    I'm sorry, but this can't be part of a reasonable argument. People do stupid shit with barbells (crossfit - snatches for time?). Does this make barbells a poor choice?
    Does there exist a 1RM or a 5RM kettelbell protocol which is incrementally loadable to the extent that a barbell is? Perhaps I am merely uninformed.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Why do you think that more force is required to perform a power clean than a 1RM deadlift?
    (In my best Horshack imitation) Oh Oh Oh! I know! Because he doesn't understand physics! Like that dpg guy!


  5. #75
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    You kettlebell guys should try Highland Games where you throw a weight instead of just swinging it. That is a display of force production; however, you still don't train for throwing a 56# weight by swinging it. You train with a barbell.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Why do you think that more force is required to perform a power clean than a 1RM deadlift?
    Ooh ooh, pick me. It's because he doesn't understand the difference between force and power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Then why didn't they? More importantly, how do you quantify a 5RM swing, i.e. how do you MISS a 5RM swing? Only do it 4 times?
    Kettlebell swings are like clean high pulls in that since there's no racking or not-racking that can occur at the top to quantify failure, you cannot actually miss a 5RM, it just doesn't get pulled as high. Thus they're less useful than the power clean or power snatch for programming progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Does there exist a 1RM or a 5RM kettelbell protocol which is incrementally loadable to the extent that a barbell is? Perhaps I am merely uninformed.
    I'm on fire today. He has made a logical error. He fails to consider the fact that kettlebells can only be used for silly bullshit, and that this makes them different from barbells, which can be used both for silly bullshit and actual training, and that we're mostly just interested in using them for training.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Skillin View Post
    Ooh ooh, pick me. It's because he doesn't understand the difference between force and power.

    Kettlebell swings are like clean high pulls in that since there's no racking or not-racking that can occur at the top to quantify failure, you cannot actually miss a 5RM, it just doesn't get pulled as high. Thus they're less useful than the power clean or power snatch for programming progress.


    I'm on fire today. He has made a logical error. He fails to consider the fact that kettlebells can only be used for silly bullshit, and that this makes them different from barbells, which can be used both for silly bullshit and actual training, and that we're mostly just interested in using them for training.
    Good man, Adam.

  8. #78
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    Adam, I think you could do well on the written part of the SSC test, I am taking notes.

  9. #79
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    This is a pretty good demonstration of strength, although may not have been the way the strength was obtained. See Valentin Dikul Power Juggling in Circus 1985

  10. #80
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    I actually enjoyed messing around with kettlebells at fire academy when my only other option was machines at the academy gym.

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