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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpg View Post
    The ability of an exercise to improve strength is not dependent only on the weight of the implement but also on the amount of force required to move it through a given range of motion. Just as more force can be produced during a lighter but faster power clean than a slower and heavier dead lift, so too more force can be produced with a lighter KB (approx. 30% of user's body weight according to force plate studies) than with a heavier KB. A KB swing is also an example of a weighted exercise in which the implement does not travel in a straight line.
    Note the study referenced:

    http://www.menshealth.com/fitness/why-use-kettlebells

    The people doing traditional weights did far better.

    They throw some BS afterwards about kettlebells still being useful because of endurance training, but it's not very convincing.

  2. #82
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    Hold up, force is still that shit you need to change the motion of an object, right? Either to make it move, make it move faster, change its direction, slow it down or stop it, right?

    KE= m/2 x v^2, or kinetic energy equals mass divided by 2 times velocity squared. That means that we cause an object to produce more kinetic energy by affecting the velocity of an object (via the force we apply to it causing it to accelerate) than we can by just making the object heavier. And making an object produce more kinetic energy requires more energy from us, right? Or is there a glitch in the Matrix? Should bullets move the speed of a barbell squat instead of much faster?

    This must have been covered in the part of the thread where I also asked about 1RM deadlifts, because I can't find that either.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay Simczyk View Post
    You kettlebell guys should try Highland Games where you throw a weight instead of just swinging it. That is a display of force production; however, you still don't train for throwing a 56# weight by swinging it. You train with a barbell.
    I understand that's how they've been training for the Highland Games for centuries despite the barbell being invented in the 1860s.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    More importantly, how do you quantify a 5RM swing, i.e. how do you MISS a 5RM swing? Only do it 4 times?
    Does there exist a 1RM or a 5RM kettelbell protocol which is incrementally loadable to the extent that a barbell is? Perhaps I am merely uninformed.
    First off, I am not disagreeing with you that a bar is much better for developing strength. If I could only have one tool, a bar would be it. I am arguing that swings make a good assistance exercise if you load them heavy enough. So, how do you get a 5RM for a swing?
    Option A:
    1. Get plate-loaded handle and load it up.
    2. Stretch a band across the pins in your rack at a specified height. If you don't hit the band with your swing, the rep doesn't count. Just like missing depth in a squat means it doesn't count. Add weight until you hit 5 reps.
    Option B:
    1. Use traditional kettlebells. When you reach a specified rep/height goal, move to the next size. This might be a big jump, so...
    2. Bring the target height down a bit for the band and then slowly move it up each workout until you hit full height for the specified reps. This seems no different to me than different height pulls. Just like snatches use less weight but larger ROM than cleans, high (to shoulder height) swings use less weight and larger ROM than lower (to waist height) swings.

    My strength numbers are nothing special (My best DL is 415x5), but they are not horrible and swinging 150 lbs on swing handle for 3x8 is a challenge.

  5. #85
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    I used a kettlebell to hang from my belt on dips yesterday. The end.

  6. #86
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    Is it any surprise that the group that trained with conventional weights twice a week improved their conventional lifts more than the group that trained with kettlebells twice a week (since the barbell group got to train using the kind of lifts they would be tested on)? What if they ran the same study but tested the kettlebell lifts instead of the barbell lifts? Wouldn't the group that trained on the kettlebells have improved more? And the study would have concluded that kettlebells are more effective that barbells. It would be useful to know how much each group's kettlebell lifts improved during the same period. That way we could see how much each tool carries over into performance with the other tool. Dan John and Pavel (who are mentioned in the article) have written about a "What the Hell" effect, where including kettlebells in the training regimen seems to produce inexplicable increases on the barbell lifts and in athletic performance. But I agree with the article's main point that barbells are tops for building strength. But the article also went on to say that kettlebells are useful for developing other qualities such as power, endurance, and mobility, which are useful to athletes as well as the recreational trainee. No one advocating kettlebells is saying that the barbell is not an effective. But that's exactly what some barbell fundamentalists are saying about the kettlebell. It's not an either/or proposition, but rather it could be a both/and proposition, for those who are so inclined.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyonabuffalo View Post
    I used a kettlebell to hang from my belt on dips yesterday. The end.
    Hang 2 next time. You'll feel masculine in a whole new way.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita_McJones View Post
    I understand that's how they've been training for the Highland Games for centuries despite the barbell being invented in the 1860s.
    I suppose if no records had been beaten since 1860 you might have a point, but...what is your point?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita_McJones View Post
    Hold up, force is still that shit you need to change the motion of an object, right? Either to make it move, make it move faster, change its direction, slow it down or stop it, right?

    KE= m/2 x v^2, or kinetic energy equals mass divided by 2 times velocity squared. That means that we cause an object to produce more kinetic energy by affecting the velocity of an object (via the force we apply to it causing it to accelerate) than we can by just making the object heavier. And making an object produce more kinetic energy requires more energy from us, right? Or is there a glitch in the Matrix? Should bullets move the speed of a barbell squat instead of much faster?

    This must have been covered in the part of the thread where I also asked about 1RM deadlifts, because I can't find that either.
    Taco, Taco, taco: I thought you might be the reincarnation of an old friend, but with this post (^) I'm not so sure.

    Graph torque against angular velocity for hip extension. Come on man.

  10. #90
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    starting strength coach development program
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    . While on the sidewalk a little girl maybe 5 or 6 came by to try picking them all up. She deadlifted them naturally with perfect form, all of them, even the biggest one. She proudly declared that she practices with milk jugs.
    This, and only this, makes this thread worthwhile.

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