Gluteal Amnesia is a myth.  But lumbar amnesia is real? Gluteal Amnesia is a myth. But lumbar amnesia is real?

starting strength gym
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 46

Thread: Gluteal Amnesia is a myth. But lumbar amnesia is real?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    7

    Default Gluteal Amnesia is a myth. But lumbar amnesia is real?

    • phoenix arizona seminar date
    • texas seminar date
    Coach Rippetoe, I just read your post on the serratus and the press, and how performing the press under correct coaching solves the movement pattern problem, assuming necessary ROM is present.

    I believe that I have also seen similar views expressed with regard to "gluteal amnesia"; that performing the SQ with appropriate form makes any gluteal activation work unnecessary.

    So the overriding theory is to get the movement pattern correct, and the appropriate muscles will fire in the appropriate sequence. Am I about right so far?

    On the other hand, you have stated that a certain percentage of your Starting Strength attendees lack voluntary lumbar erector control, i.e. "lumbar amnesia". You are able to solve this by having the attendees perform a more focused lumbar exercise, i.e. the prone Superman exercises until they gain a measure of mind muscle connection and control over the "sleeping" lumbar erectors.

    If activation or isolation exercises are unnecessary to correct poorly responding glutes, or serratus (serrati?), why are they necessary to correct poorly firing lumbar erectors?

    Why can't you just "squat" them through the problem?

    If iso moves help the lumbars fire, and thus the larger movement pattern, why wouldn't iso/activation moves also help other muscle groups that are problematic?

    Thank you, Coach Rip for your time and expertise!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    39,328

    Default

    Thank you for your insightful question! The reason that you must instruct some trainees about lumbar erector control and that, conversely, nobody needs instruction in how to contract their glutes is that -- ready? -- it possible to deadlift and squat with lumbar flexion, but it's not possible to deadlift and squat without hip extension.

    We don't use isolation exercises to correct lumbar flexion. We use them to demonstrate the muscle's function, to identify the contraction/motor pathway in the mind of the trainee, and it usually takes about 10 reps, if that. Then we squat and deadlift with the now-correct lumbar position and go up in weight as correct form permits. In fact, the lumbar erectors are the only muscles that sometimes have this problem, in about 10% of our male attendees and essentially none of the females, because they are primarily isometric in function, and their function is therefore not inherently required to execute the gross motor pattern itself. IOW, a round-backed deadlift is wrong, but it's still a deadlift.

    You know just enough about what we do in a seminar to get yourself in trouble. Maybe you should actually attend one.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Thank you, Coach Rip for your prompt reply. Yes, I will save my money and see if I can afford to attend one of your seminars, deal!

    To follow up a bit: Yes, I see and understand the rationale that squatting or pulling with a rounded spine is certainly possible, yet inappropriate.

    In a similar fashion, a trainee can also execute an OHPR with an overextended spine, correct? This one though, can be solved within the context of training and cueing the specific lift, (again assuming that necessary shoulder mobility is present.)

    Since the lumbar extension Superman exercise creates a mind-motor pathway to a better spinal brace on a SQ, would it also possibly help to perform some posterior pelvic tilt targeted moves, such as long lever planks, etc. which might create a mind-motor pathway to better brace the spine for an OHPR? Maybe do them for 10-reps to groove a nice brace, and then take that MMC straight away into the OHPR practice?

    And finally, is it possible that a trainee might exhibit decent form on a SQ, while recruiting more hamstring and adductor, thus "hiding" an optimal level of glute recruitment? Thanks again, Coach, you're amazing!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    39,328

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Strength Spin View Post
    In a similar fashion, a trainee can also execute an OHPR with an overextended spine, correct? This one though, can be solved within the context of training and cueing the specific lift, (again assuming that necessary shoulder mobility is present.)
    Yes, you are somehow correct again. We normally correct this by cueing the "abz."

    Since the lumbar extension Superman exercise creates a mind-motor pathway to a better spinal brace on a SQ, would it also possibly help to perform some posterior pelvic tilt targeted moves, such as long lever planks, etc. which might create a mind-motor pathway to better brace the spine for an OHPR?
    Maybe something like a situp?

    Maybe do them for 10-reps to groove a nice brace, and then take that MMC straight away into the OHPR practice?
    Yes, maybe.

    And finally, is it possible that a trainee might exhibit decent form on a SQ, while recruiting more hamstring and adductor, thus "hiding" an optimal level of glute recruitment?
    No, it's really not, in the absence of neuropathology, as I've explained several dozen times. But maybe you'll have an explanation!

    Thanks again, Coach, you're amazing!
    Oh, not nearly as amazing as you! We're glad you're here!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    7

    Default

    You say that you don't use the isolations to cure lumbar flexion, but rather to groove MMC of the erectors..

    What specifically do you observe in a particular squatter's form that cause you to incorporate the Supermans for that individual, and not other individuals? Lumbar flexion, maybe?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    39,328

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Strength Spin View Post
    You say that you don't use the isolations to cure lumbar flexion, but rather to groove MMC of the erectors..
    In fact, I don't say stupid shit like this at all. I prefer to use the commonly understood version of the English language whenever possible, because obfuscation and complexity are not my business model. You are a Physical Therapist, or a PT student accumulating points, and you're progressing in a predictable manner.

    What specifically do you observe in a particular squatter's form that cause you to incorporate the Supermans for that individual, and not other individuals? Lumbar flexion, maybe?
    What is the purpose of this question? Can you not understand that when a movement pattern is performed incorrectly, a coach must correct it? In lieu of prescribing 6 weeks of silly bullshit corrective exercises that do not have the capacity to correct anything? I have already told you that we do not "incorporate Supermans" for more than one set of 10. Make your fucking point.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Print this reply, Rip!

    Coach Rip, your parents did a very poor job of teaching you manners. I'm guessing there was a lot of anger in the Rippetoe childhood household, possibly some violence, etc… I'm sorry for that, but really, at this age, you should have been able to outgrow a tough upbringing, and conduct yourself with a little more class and dignity.

    I am not a PT, in training, or otherwise. I am a guy, much like you, who loves the iron, and spends a ton of time studying how the body works, and how this intersects with the mind and CNS.

    You, sir, are the one obfuscating. Rather than state the obvious, that you clearly use the Supermans as a tool to correct lumbar flexion in a bad SQ pattern, you take some tortured around the bush route of:

    "We don't use isolation exercises to correct lumbar flexion…"(yes, you do), and then go on to say "we use them to demonstrate muscle's function, identify the contraction/motor pathway (wait, and I"M the one who talks like a PT douche? huh?)in the mind of the trainee, (would that be like a mind-muscle connection? Maybe, Rip?) "Then we SQ and DL with the now-correct lumbar position" (so, it's sort of like a corrective thing, yes?).

    Why would you obfuscate like this? Probably because the obvious and correct conclusion is that using a corrective/activation exercise to gain better control over a muscle group works! Since you are all-in that this is all "stupid shit", you must find some other way to describe it. You try to find some way to lie to yourself, and your sycophants, who you know won't point out the Emperor has no clothes.

    "In fact, the lumbar erectors are the only muscles that sometimes have this problem.." Simply, not true. The abs can have this problem as well, particularly with females who have borne children, and shouting "Abz" will be as ineffective as shouting "Low back" to a lumbar amnesiac. You know, the ones that you prescribe the Supermans to, b/c they are sloppy through the core. Yes, I used the word "core", Coach Rip. Try not to take out your frustration on your dog again. He didn't deserve it just because you are mad because that mean guy on the internet questioned your logic.

    I'm sure all of your little sheeple minions are going to come out of the woodwork, and rip into me, fine. I tried to have a decent exchange of ideas, but when you are dealing with a cult, they just want you to chug the freaking Kool-Aid.

    Keep learning and growing, Coach Rip! Otherwise you start to slowly die inside. (Of course, it may be a little too late for that with you.)

    Further, no one said anything about 6-weeks of corrective exercises. Are you suffering from dementia? Who are you arguing with anyway?

    And so what if it did take 6-weeks, anyway? Aren't we always trying to improve movement patterns with all tools at our disposal? Doesn't mean that you can't still be squatting, and pulling along the way, always working on form. It's no big deal to knock out a band pull apart in between sets of bench presses, or set of clam ups in between sets of SQs.

    Just use the activation drill before the move, just like you do with the Supermans.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    39,328

    Default

    Finally, the point is made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strength Spin View Post
    Rather than state the obvious, that you clearly use the Supermans as a tool to correct lumbar flexion in a bad SQ pattern, you take some tortured around the bush route of:

    "We don't use isolation exercises to correct lumbar flexion…"(yes, you do), and then go on to say "we use them to demonstrate muscle's function, identify the contraction/motor pathway (wait, and I"M the one who talks like a PT douche? huh?)in the mind of the trainee, (would that be like a mind-muscle connection? Maybe, Rip?) "Then we SQ and DL with the now-correct lumbar position" (so, it's sort of like a corrective thing, yes?).

    Why would you obfuscate like this? Probably because the obvious and correct conclusion is that using a corrective/activation exercise to gain better control over a muscle group works! Since you are all-in that this is all "stupid shit", you must find some other way to describe it. You try to find some way to lie to yourself, and your sycophants, who you know won't point out the Emperor has no clothes.

    "In fact, the lumbar erectors are the only muscles that sometimes have this problem.." Simply, not true. The abs can have this problem as well, particularly with females who have borne children, and shouting "Abz" will be as ineffective as shouting "Low back" to a lumbar amnesiac. You know, the ones that you prescribe the Supermans to, b/c they are sloppy through the core. Yes, I used the word "core", Coach Rip. Try not to take out your frustration on your dog again. He didn't deserve it just because you are mad because that mean guy on the internet questioned your logic.
    Abs are situps. Everybody has done situps. Essentially NOBODY has done "supermans", and you just don't know what you're talking about. We correct these problems at every seminar, and maybe some of my cult members will verify the details of the process for you.

    And please accept my apologies for calling you a Physical Therapist, that was indeed uncalled for. I was merely frustrated by your passive/aggressive bullshit. Still no reason to fly off the handle like I did. Nonetheless, Alfred says he'll bite you.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,993

    Default

    The writing style of the OP is familiar.

    Nonetheless, I think the original post was a legitimate question, and the answer interesting to others. I would just delete all but the first and second posts before banning Will D again.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    39,328

    Default

    We're betting it's Mark Jamsek/Top Rank. This has been Troll Day here on the Q&A.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •