PP 3rd Edition - Starr Model HLM - 5x5 confusion PP 3rd Edition - Starr Model HLM - 5x5 confusion

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Thread: PP 3rd Edition - Starr Model HLM - 5x5 confusion

  1. #1
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    Default PP 3rd Edition - Starr Model HLM - 5x5 confusion

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    First, an apology if this has been addressed elsewhere on the forum.

    I have PP 3rd edition and I have a question regarding the rep x set system for the starr model. In the introduction to the chapter, Mark says that Starr had his athletes work up in sets of five (5 x 135, 165, 225, 255). Later on in the chapter, in the example workouts, it simply says ex 350x5x5. So I'm wondering if I ought to be working up in increasing sets of five as per the introduction. Or, warming up to my work-weight then doing five sets of five at that weight.

    Again, sorry if this has been answered elsewhere.

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    It says 350x5x5 in reference to the Starr model? What page? I am away from my copy of the book.

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    I have the kindle edition - Location 4681. The part I was referring to is from the first example program for the Starr Model (Powerlifting Program #1). The first week of the sample progression says Monday - Squat - 350x5x5.

    The reason I'm curious is because I have been on the Starr Model for 12 weeks, as I interpreted it from the PP book. That is, warming up to 5x5 across. I train Jiu-jitsu three times a week and work full time, so, often I just don't have the mental or physical reserves to manage a 5x5 max effort and progress has stalled. I'm wondering if 5x5 ramped sets could fix the problem.

    Thanks again

    Daniel

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    It says 350x5x5 in reference to the Starr model? What page? I am away from my copy of the book.
    I think he's looking at HLM on pg. 163 (I happened to have the book right next to me).

  5. #5
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    Once again, I don't have the book here, but I don't believe the HLM uses 5x5 across. What does the book actually say?

  6. #6
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    There is a note underneath the first sample program Heavy-Light-Medium - General Strength Training or Powerlifting (Program #1)

    "The trainee begins the program with sets of 5 across on all exercises, except the clean."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Once again, I don't have the book here, but I don't believe the HLM uses 5x5 across. What does the book actually say?
    From the example he's referring to, on Page 164, HLM Program #1:

    Notes: The trainee begins the program with set of 5 across on all exercises, except the clean. As the weight on the bar increases over time, the heavy day will change from 5X5 to 5X3, to accommodate the heavier weight. Eventually the 5X3 drops down to 5X1. The light and medium days stay at 3X5 until doing so makes those days no longer light or medium. In this case, the light day was dropped to 3X3 and the medium day was done for just 1X5. Additionally, the press and power clean were reduced to 3X3 and 4X2 respectively, in order to keep putting weight on the bar week after week.
    It starts at 350X5X5, on week five is reduced to 3X5, then down to 1X5 on week ten, as the weight on the bar is increased by 5 pounds each week.

  8. #8
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    The book does give a few examples which use 5x5, some that use 3x5 and a few others that rotate rep ranges. It also goes on to talk about how the system is really about the stress of the day being Heavy, Light or Medium and that none of the examples are really set in stone. Heavy day could be 3x8, 5x3, 5x1 any other rep/set range that could be considered a heavy stress dose.

  9. #9
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    It does say 5x5 in the book but of course Coach Baker has said that he has changed his mind on that and prefers 3x5.

  10. #10
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    This is very important and I have mentioned it multiple times:

    The Heavy-Light-Medium System IS NOT A SPECIFIC PROGRAM. It is a means of organizing training. Within that organization there are LOTS of set and rep schemes that can be utilized effectively and lots of exercises that can be plugged in at different times.

    Now, Bill Starr used the HLM system for his athletes and wrote about it in his books. He happened to be a fan of using ascending rep schemes for 5x5. Over time a lot of people have come to think like this: HLM = Ascending 5 x 5. NO. That was simply Starr's preferred rep scheme within the HLM system - if for nothing else, it is an easy way to train large groups of athletes. But the two concepts (HLM and Ascending 5x5's) are not married to each other.

    Within the HLM system you can use Ascending 5 x 5, 5x5 across, a 5RM, etc. As long as what you are doing on a given day fits the criteria as either Heavy, Light, or Medium you are managing stress in a way that the system was designed for.

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