The role of the olympic lifts in training programs

[JCavin]

Think about this: does putting the 16-pound shot make you strong? After all, big strong men throw the shot.

I don't know if you're agreeing with me or not lol

I understand the distinction here. It's a small one, but an important one. I can see how this could get very frustrating trying to show it over and over again.

[Mark Rippetoe]

It's not a small distinction -- it is critical to the methods currently being applied in S&C. Strong men have clean & jerked in the mid-500s. Did they get strong enough to do this by doing the clean & jerk? All of them? If so, how? If not, what did they do? Why?

[Darkroman]

I thought it was simple enough: squats, presses, and deadlifts train strength.
Power cleans demonstrate the strength the trainee has gained. It's not a movement used to train strength. The only thing you're "training" in the power clean is the power clean technique (assuming form is kept well). It's also a great way to guage your overall power after strength training to see the effects of it. It also allows for a sort of an active recovery between deadlifts in the later phases of The Program.
That's my understanding of it.

[JCavin]

It's not a small distinction -- it is critical to the methods currently being applied in S&C. Strong men have clean & jerked in the mid-500s. Did they get strong enough to do this by doing the clean & jerk? All of them? If so, how? If not, what did they do? Why?

I agree with you here. I was simply trying to explain the difference to the new guy.

[Bill Been]

Let's hypothesize that your deadlift to clean ratio is 65%. It just is.
Let's say you train SS without doing any Power Cleans, and you increase your deadlift to 400.
Theoretically, your Power Clean should be 400 x .65 =260lb. But it's not, because you haven't practiced the lift nor have you practiced exploding your new strength into action rapidly. So despite having the potential to clean 65% of your dead, at this moment you're only able to clean maybe 50%.

Now let's say you ran the LP and included power cleans, and again increased your deadlift up to 400lb. You now have a pretty good shot at realizing (expressing) your full genetically-endowed ability to call motor units into action quickly and hit the 260.

Bonus Math Points if you can answer this question: which is likely to be both the faster and the surer way to increase the Power Clean to 280:
A) endeavor to improve power clean technique thereby raising the percentage to 68%, or;
B) increase maximal deadlift strength to 435 while settling for the 65% ratio?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Let's hypothesize that your deadlift to clean ratio is 65%. It just is.
Let's say you train SS without doing any Power Cleans, and you increase your deadlift to 400.
Theoretically, your Power Clean should be 400 x .65 =260lb. But it's not, because you haven't practiced the lift nor have you practiced exploding your new strength into action rapidly. So despite having the potential to clean 65% of your dead, at this moment you're only able to clean maybe 50%.

Now let's say you ran the LP and included power cleans, and again increased your deadlift up to 400lb. You now have a pretty good shot at realizing (expressing) your full genetically-endowed ability to call motor units into action quickly and hit the 260.

Bonus Math Points if you can answer this question: which is likely to be both the faster and the surer way to increase the Power Clean to 280:
A) endeavor to improve power clean technique thereby raising the percentage to 68%, or;
B) increase maximal deadlift strength to 435 while settling for the 65% ratio?

As concise an example as is possible to draw. They will still not believe it.

[Gene61]

This is a subject I've been mulling over ever since reading SS. The OP hit on the key issue for me with his question. That is, we are leaving acceleration out of the analysis. For all of this to make sense, that the standing jump isn't really trainable but the power clean can keep up proportionately with your dead lift, means that each individual has a genetically fixed potential to accelerate himself or an object, but the amount of weight which can be propelled through this fixed acceleration is trainable. If you are weak you can only throw a baseball as fast as you can. If you get really strong you can do it with a shot put.

The acceleration remains the same but as the mass is increased through training, the power displayed increases proportionately.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Once again, clarity. The ability to accelerate is a function of how many motor units can be recruited in as short as possible a time. This is the fixed part. The trainable part is how much force those recruited motor units can apply during that short time interval. We know these things because we know that 1.) Standing Vertical Jump is a measure of the ability to instantly recruit motor units, that it does not improve significantly with training, and 2.) that an athlete with a 600-pound deadlift always cleans more than an athlete with a 200-pound deadlift. The power clean is basically there for practicing the rapid recruitment of force -- but it cannot develop either the recruitment ability or increase the amount of force on its own.

[Gene61]

Once again, clarity. The ability to accelerate is a function of how many motor units can be recruited in as short as possible a time. This is the fixed part. The trainable part is how much force those recruited motor units can apply during that short time interval. We know these things because we know that 1.) Standing Vertical Jump is a measure of the ability to instantly recruit motor units, that it does not improve significantly with training, and 2.) that an athlete with a 600-pound deadlift always cleans more than an athlete with a 200-pound deadlift. The power clean is basically there for practicing the rapid recruitment of force -- but it cannot develop either the recruitment ability or increase the amount of force on its own.

Yep. Makes sense. Thanks.

[Browndog]

Uh oh Rip, you mentioned SVJ...

That's akin to saying Beetleguese three times. You're gonna get the wacko birds showing up here.

All that good work Been just produced will get lost in their wailings