Question on cleans/rows, also, general questions on the texas method Question on cleans/rows, also, general questions on the texas method

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Thread: Question on cleans/rows, also, general questions on the texas method

  1. #1
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    Default Question on cleans/rows, also, general questions on the texas method

    • starting strength seminar october 2021
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    I read that you recommended athletes start doing cleans. Is there any way I can do cleans and barbell rows in the same week? I am progressing greatly on barbell rows and would rather not remove them, unless they are absolutely for the best. I am getting stronger from them and my biceps are responding greatly to them.

    By the same token, more explosiveness for lifts and improved technique on cleans would be great as well.

    I was going to do this

    Monday
    Squat 5X5
    Bench Press 5X5
    5x5 Bent over Row
    3x8 Decline weighted situps

    Wednesday
    Front Squat 3X3
    Press 5X5
    a1 4x6 Pullups weighted
    a2 3x15 cable crunch
    b1 3x12 leg raises
    b2 3x12 external rotation
    b3 3x12 hip adductor

    Friday
    Squat 1X5
    Bench Press 1x5
    1x5 or 2x3 deadlift
    a1 3x8 glute ham raise
    a2 3x20 decline situps
    a3 3x8 external rotation
    a4 3x8 hip adductor


    Where could glute ham raises go at? I do not want them interfering with deadlifts.

    *note*, please do not think I'm a noob trying to cram in every exercise possible without giving the program a chance, also please know that external rotation and hip adduction are for injury prevention and to stop imbalances. They are very easy on the CNS and will not lead to fatigue. Also, I believe the ab exercises will only cause direct fatigue and won't add to CNS fatigue, but please tell me if I'm wrong.






  2. #2
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    I guess all this depends on how much you're squatting and deadlifting now. That looks like an awful big mess of assistance work to me. You can certainly row and clean the same week, but I don't see cleans in the workout you've listed. I do, however, see exercises that "are very easy on the CNS and will not lead to fatigue". If they are easy, why do them? Why do you think the program you are doing will lead to imbalances? And how will exercises that do not produce fatigue correct them? And why would ab exercises that only cause "direct fatigue" be preferable to exercises that work abs during the performance of their normal trunk stabilization function?

    I don't think you understand the concept of the program. It doesn't need any help from assistance exercises because it leaves nothing out, and it causes no imbalances that need to be corrected. "Muscle groups" are components of systems, and when the systems are worked, so are their components.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    I guess all this depends on how much you're squatting and deadlifting now. That looks like an awful big mess of assistance work to me. You can certainly row and clean the same week, but I don't see cleans in the workout you've listed. I do, however, see exercises that "are very easy on the CNS and will not lead to fatigue". If they are easy, why do them? Why do you think the program you are doing will lead to imbalances? And how will exercises that do not produce fatigue correct them? And why would ab exercises that only cause "direct fatigue" be preferable to exercises that work abs during the performance of their normal trunk stabilization function?

    I don't think you understand the concept of the program. It doesn't need any help from assistance exercises because it leaves nothing out, and it causes no imbalances that need to be corrected. "Muscle groups" are components of systems, and when the systems are worked, so are their components.
    My squat 1 rep max is around 310, my deadlift 1 rep max is around 430, I can tell I need to catch my squat up and I'm working on it. I was training them with a 1 day per week frequency.

    For the cleans, I was going to ask you where they could fit in my workout. Would friday's max intensity day be best, or monday's volume day? A good rep scheme for cleans? I read somewhere that you should not go over 3 reps on cleans as form breaks down due to fatigue.

    As for the imbalances, I read an article titled "Waterbury Rules"

    http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle....dra?id=1379910

    He said he's never seen anyone with adequately strong Wrist Extensors, External Rotators, and Serratus Muscles and that everyone could benefit with training them, the same applies to hip adduction and hip abduction.

    At this stage, do I not need to do individual training for those muscles?

    Could you please give a few examples of "exercises that work abs during the performance of their normal trunk stabilization function"?

    Thank you for your time, I'm learning quite a bit.

  4. #4

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    I can't speak of the other assistance exercises, but the external rotation for the rotator cuff seems to address a muscle weakness that is otherwise negected in full body routines. I have notoriously weak rotator cuffs and this has hindered my progression in the Press. Exercises like pull-ups, push presses, push jerks, and snatches can make my shoulder subluxate, so I have to be very careful when doing them and use light weight. And forget about arm wrestling. I've been doing the RC rotations to try and correct the imbalance, but it's very slow going.

    Can you offer any insight into RC weaknesses and why it is so underdeveloped despite my history of compound shoulder strengthening movements?

    Thanks!

    -Tim

  5. #5
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    Hmm, I must not have replied correctly...

    One issue I hear is weak rotator cuffs.


    The second most common imbalance I see is the external rotators.



    I've seen a lot of guys coming into our performance centers, and when we put them on a rotator cuff program, their bench press, their incline press, and their chins all go up just because the external rotators don't inhibit the internal rotators anymore.

    One of the primary reasons that athletes, especially bodybuilders, often avoid exercises for the external rotators is that they have to start with embarrassingly light weights. Jim McKenzie is a professional hockey player who went from a 280-pound close-grip bench press to 380 pounds in less than four months.



    For the first three months we did no bench pressing. Because his external rotators were so weak, he had to start with five-pound dumbbells when performing many of these exercises! He swallowed his pride, and the results speak for themselves.

    3/4ths down in this article http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1718015

  6. #6
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    Sorry for the delay in response, my fault, shallow learning curve with bulletin board matters.

    Now, here's the deal. All this shit about having to separately strengthen the wrist extensors, the internal and external shoulder rotators, the serratus (both groups), the hip ab- and ad-ductors, is bleed from physical therapy. All these muscles, believe it or not, work during complex movements in ways that contribute to those movements WITHOUT being isolated into their physical therapist 5-lb. dumbbell individual exercises. The hockey player that put 100 lbs. on his CG bench in 4 months without doing any benching for three months because they strengthened his external shoulder rotators with 5 lb. dumbbells (well, okay...) was not doing any heavy presses either. Betcha $20 the man never stood on his feet with bar in his hands and pressed 200 lbs. overhead. And if can't do that with a CG bench of 380 he's still out of balance.

    Presses strengthen the external rotators because all those muscles contribute to stabilizing the lockout position in isometric contraction; they don't just externally rotate. The wrist extensors get lots of work when you chin, hold heavy weighs overhead, deadlift, clean, snatch, bench, and work with fat bars, sandbags, tires, sledgehammers, and farmer's walk weights. But an arm trainer might not know that; they are very dumbbell/mirror-oriented. The squat works adductors and abductors because they have an important role in the movement that is not necessary to supplement with isolated physical therapy elastic band bullshit. Same with serratus muscles (look them up and see what you think they might be doing in a heavy press), the shoulder rotators, all the abs, all the little muscles in the hips and back, and anything else it's real neat to know how to isolate with a chrome dumbbell or a therapy band. All the muscles necessary to do presses, squats, or pulls are trained by presses, squats, and pulls, and if you think that muscles are somehow getting left out of your workouts, you may not be using enough weight or using correct technique.

    You can train effectively your entire life without ever doing a single isolation exercise if you use barbell exercises that make you squat, press, and pull from the floor, and do other functional exercises like chins and stuff that looks like work. But you have to use textbook form, challenging weights, and common sense.

  7. #7
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    I've been doing the Texas method, pretty much to a T for a while now, and am wondering about a few exercises.

    Could pull throughs and Close Stance, Stiff Leg, No Touch Deadlifts Off Box be incorporated for deadlift strength? I was thinking 4x10 pull throughs on fridays, after deadlifting. Maybe hold off on the stiff legged deadlifts.

    I would also like to do some tricep work, but I don't like the pussy methods I see(such as rope pushdowns, overhead extensions etc.)

    Any of these sound good?

    Close grip flat barbell bench or close grip incline barbell bench
    Floor presses
    Various board presses.

    I struggle about halfway up the bench, I can move the bottom portion decently, and the lockout is incredibly easy, but I struggle right at the midpoint, which of those would be best for that?

  8. #8
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    starting strength coach development program
    If you insist, try everything, shitcan that which does not help, and keep what does.

    Bodybuilders can advise about tricep training better than I can, since that is not my forte'. I always liked weighted dips.

    If you want to single out a particular section of the ROM of a lift, the power rack is your best tool.

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