Did this study just prove the Novice Effect? Did this study just prove the Novice Effect? - Page 3

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Thread: Did this study just prove the Novice Effect?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan B. View Post
    I just thought I'd share with you the mindset of my Deputy Chief regarding strength training. Here is his reply to my request for the department to purchase the SS poster featuring squat guy vs treadmill guy:

    "Truth be told… I shot it down. I read it. I don’t agree. Everything I’ve ever been taught via the East Bank Club fitness training, Cooper Institute 40 hour class making me a “trainer”, and the FBI National Academy class on health and fitness says VO2 max (cardio-pulmonary fitness) is THE most important part of physical fitness. I disagree with the FACT: Strength is the most useful of all aspects of fitness and the one that affects all others. I also disagree with the pictures – start here – Squat guy; not here – Treadmill guy.
    Most people equate aerobic exercise with good overall fitness, but training for strength is MUCH more beneficial. WHAT???! Are you F*****g kidding me? Who vetted this poster?

    The jigsaw puzzle pieces I tend to agree with. However, Cardiac / Respiratory Endurance (cardio-pulmonary fitness) should be #1 – and NOT watered down.

    See the inserted page from the CDC website – Heart disease kills 1 in 4 Americans. In 2013, cancer became the #1 killer (in people under 85 – If I make it to 85… I won’t be worrying about weight rooms). If you exclude people under 18, and over 85 – Heart disease is still #1.

    So… as I get off my soapbox, I will part with this; “Nobody is dying from small bi-ceps, but heart disease is killing people every day.” I heard that from (our former Chief) years ago – I thought it was profound at the time. When I got the FBI Academy – where they live, eat, and breathe – FITNESS! I found it was part of their mantra. Apparently that’s where (our former Chief) got it from. It is far more beneficial to do a sustained exercise over a period of time that elevates your heart rate and breathing rate vs strength training. It is even more beneficial when you vary the intensity of the sustained exercise that elevates your heart rate and breathing rate
    ."

    After a severely edited reply, I explained that it was my understanding that genetics and a poor diet were much bigger factors in heart disease than lack of cardio. I also thought that VO2 max was similar to SVJ regarding genetics and trainability.

    Again, his reply: "Amen on the diet first. But I’m NOT a believer in the weight room much anymore, and neither is the NHL, NBA, MLB, the US Olympic committee… (I purposely excluded the NFL – bulk has a place there) Current fitness pros are big believers in body weight exercises, plyometrics, cardio-pulmonary training, flexibility, and agility training. (His son's) hockey team employs a coach full-time, year round – a $100k/year job to train the AAA players at all levels – either 2, 3, or 4 days a week depending on their age range. (His son) does box jumps, skips rope, agility runs, medicine ball work, push-ups, floor crawls, lunges, white board, planks, 400 meter runs with resistance, dynamic stretching, etc… RARELY do those kids get to play with weights. Resistance bands, body weight exercises, etc… Barbells are dead my friend. Athletes now train movements, not muscle groups anymore.

    Your body was in better health doing 3 miles on the centennial trail then lifting a combined #1000 pounds.

    The poster’s a NO because it does imply strength training is superior to cardio-pulmonary exercise." "...strength is certainly not more important than VO2 max – how well, and how much your body can pump, replenish, and pump again – oxygen rich red blood cells to your muscles.

    Cardio first, flexibility and coordination second, strength third… that’s my training and experience
    ."

    Although I've never used the word in a half century on this planet, I believe "flabbergasted" most aptly describes my response to this reaction over requesting the SS poster. I can't wait to see his reaction when I outline a strength training proposal for the department.
    Kids, if you wanted to see what appeal to authority, appeal to novelty, and appeal to the masses fallacies look like, go no further.

  2. #22
    Brodie Butland is offline Starting Strength Coach
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan B. View Post
    Stuff
    There are plenty of obvious softballs with this dude's responses. What does he think happens to someone's heart rate during a weight training session? When law enforcement is charging after a suspect, what do officers use to take him down and restrain him? What do studies show with respect to the systemic changes in insulin resistance and inflammation (both linked to heart disease) resulting from high-intensity training?

    But the problem, as you probably have discovered, is that this dude simply isn't going to even consider anything that goes against his preconceived notions--no matter what arguments you use, no matter what studies you pull out, no matter what results you demonstrate, no matter what facts you present. In my judgment, developing strength training proposals is a waste of your time...but if you want to try to piss up a rope, then good luck and I hope that someone a little more open minded gets to make the call.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by brcleeroy View Post
    I am more flabbergasted with two people who are focusing their argument on the extremes. As far as general health and morbidity is concerned the ability to run a 4 minute mile has about as much utility as being able to perform a 700 lb. squat. Both are tremendous feats by themselves. However, if someone who runs a 4 minute mile can't bench press the bar I would hesitate to call that person fit. Similarly, if someone can squat 700+ lbs. and can't complete a mile run I would also hesitate to call that person fit as well.
    And this is what's known as a Strawman argument; no one is saying anything about a 700 pound squat. And as Rip has repeatedly pointed out, individuals who develop the capability to do so have given up the concern for "fitness" long ago.

    Nice try, though.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brodie Butland View Post
    There are plenty of obvious softballs with this dude's responses. What does he think happens to someone's heart rate during a weight training session? When law enforcement is charging after a suspect, what do officers use to take him down and restrain him? What do studies show with respect to the systemic changes in insulin resistance and inflammation (both linked to heart disease) resulting from high-intensity training?
    The Deputy Chief seems to think he is the Deputy Chief of the Longevity Department. He's not even qualified for that.

  5. #25
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    Certainly people aren't dying of small biceps, but sarcopenia / osteopenia are substantial causes of morbidity and mortality.

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    But the problem, as you probably have discovered, is that this dude simply isn't going to even consider anything that goes against his preconceived notions--no matter what arguments you use, no matter what studies you pull out, no matter what results you demonstrate, no matter what facts you present. In my judgment, developing strength training proposals is a waste of your time...but if you want to try to piss up a rope, then good luck and I hope that someone a little more open minded gets to make the call.
    You're right, of course. If this was his reaction to simply buying a poster to hang in our weight room, I can only imagine how big a "cardio" stick I'll be beaten with during a full-on strength training proposition. Another day....another way.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post
    And this is what's known as a Strawman argument; no one is saying anything about a 700 pound squat. And as Rip has repeatedly pointed out, individuals who develop the capability to do so have given up the concern for "fitness" long ago.

    Nice try, though.
    Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't recall him ever saying that. Perhaps he has. However, that doesn't take away from my main point that both aerobic and strength training are important. If you are strong but have no aerobic capacity you are strong, but not fit. If you are aerobically fit but have no strength you are equally not fit. Both are important when it comes to fitness. The focus on what to train for is up to the individual.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post
    And this is what's known as a Strawman argument; no one is saying anything about a 700 pound squat. And as Rip has repeatedly pointed out, individuals who develop the capability to do so have given up the concern for "fitness" long ago.

    Nice try, though.
    Yeah, I'm not sure where the 700lb squat & 4 min mile stuff came from. I just wanted to hang a poster. Thanks, Satch!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    I envy your eloquence, sir. This article was spot-on. The picture as well.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan B. View Post
    I just thought I'd share with you the mindset of my Deputy Chief regarding strength training.
    And StrengthJesus wept. Did that guy coast into his job with NO time on the street? Because what followed was exactly like what John Musser was talking about in his video presentation.

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