Fast progression a potential problem?

[timelinex]

I think there is an elephant in the room when it comes to answering the question of "why doesn't everyone just follow the damn program". I do not remember you addressing the idea in any of your books either.

My joints/ligaments/tendons could not keep up with the weight progression that my muscles could.

I know the reason I did not stick to SS but deviated was simply because my progression was too fast for everything but my muscles. I was not a rank novice but have worked out my entire life, on and off, for a few years at a time using poor programming. This means I didn't do the big compound movements but since I did focus on high intensity and LP I was still relatively strong for a novice. I am sure that alot of people you have coached have started in similar shoes.

When I started doing SS, everything eventually started hurting! My hips & knees from squats. I'm 29 and I have never had hip pain in my life! My shoulders were in pain from having my arms so far back on the LBBS and then beating them further by benching/OHP the same day. I switched to something with a bit slower progression while my body got used to the lifts and slowly everything started healing and I'm lifting mostly pain free now. (shoulders are at 90% because the LBBS really stretches them out still. But its way better by now).

If you take a look at the threads on this forum, it looks like many people have the same issues. Hip pain. Shoulder pain. Elbow pain. Knee pain. Some is caused by form error. But much of it really seems to be caused by someone diving in too far too fast. It's widely acknowledged that steroids cause joint issues because ligaments/tendons can't keep up with the rapid pace of muscle growth. Why would this not be a similar concern for maximizing "novice gains"?

I acknowledge that your base program works great for most young teens that are rank novices. Everything felt bulletproof back then. But now, even at a relatively young age of 29, my joints/ligaments/tendons aren't as good as they used to be.

I know this can't be the first time you have entertained this thought. The only answer I can see is that a SSC would adjust the program to fit the needs of the client. But that's a bit besides the point when most people doing SS do not have a personal trainer.

Am I missing something?

[Mark Rippetoe]

You're missing several things, as are we. What were your numbers for this amazingly fast progression? Did your squat go from 215 to 445 in 3 weeks?

[hector_garza]

I once had some of the aches and pains the OP describes despite my perfect form.
So I saw a SSC.
Turned out my form wasn't perfect. After the SSCs fixed my squat the pain she went away.

[Tony Vino]

My shoulders were in pain from having my arms so far back on the LBBS and then beating them further by benching/OHP the same day.

I think you didn't quite follow the program if you were benching and pressing on the same day

[marcf]

I asked this same question when I went through my LP last year. I don't remember my exact numbers, but in about 4-5 weeks my squat went from 165 to 265, deadlift from 190 to 295, bench from 175 to 245 and press from 90 to 145. It really beat me up. My joints were aching, my hips felt like shit, etc.

I'm 6'1" and a few weeks shy of 36 now. When I started LP, I weighed 222 and now I weigh 240 most days.

Since I was physically inactive before starting the program, I think the sudden and steep rise in intensity is what hurt me. At 4-5 weeks into the program, most sets started to feel really hard. I think that's what causes pain in some novices--going from 0 to 100 in no time at all and there are structures that just don't adapt as quickly as the muscles, and become susceptible to inflammation and injury when doing high intensity for your last few weeks of LP.

It's been over a year now and I really don't ache anymore except when I intentionally have high volume or high intensity weeks. It's amazing to me that I used to eat so much ibuprofen during my LP, but now pain isn't even an afterthought. My biggest concern these days is whether I'm getting enough sleep.

My advice to you, and what I should have done myself, is switch to advanced programming sooner than later, where you add in a light day for squats on day 2--especially if you're getting beat up. Slow your progression on bench and press with fractional plates if you have them (and you should). And switch to 5-pound or 2.5 pound jumps on your deadlift. Slow down a little and take it easy. If takes you another 4-6 weeks to finish your LP because of this, you won't die. But if you get injured pushing intensity, you'll have to reset.

The last and obvious thing is to get your form checked. I saw a few SSCs in person during my first few months of LP and it really accelerated my learning curve in performing the lifts.

[timelinex]

Most definitely not 445lb. More like barely doing 135lb clumsily to doing 200lb+ in a few weeks. The actual numbers are beside the point, since the point wasn't that I was making record breaking progress. Rather the progress felt faster than the rest of my (not 16 year old) body could keep up with. My poor flexibility didn't help and I'm sure alot of the pains were attributed to my body still adjusting to a range of motion and movement I never did with weight. My leg muscles were alot stronger than everything else needed for the squat. The reason I believe that is the weight progress felt fine and wasn't awfully difficult on the muscles or exhausting, like it is now that I'm doing closer to 275lb. But everything else ached.

Looking at the forums; I'm not the only one. Knees, hips, shoulders, elbows, etc.. Seems like the squat is a common culprit. Thats the point. I also doubt it's just about doing the squat 3x a week and more about doing it progressively heavier 3x a week. Are you saying that in your personal experience, everyone following your base program didn't have any concerning ache's, tendinitis and pains from the frequency and progression speed of some of the lifts?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Height/bodyweight before/after?

[A Schenck]

When I started doing SS, everything eventually started hurting! My hips & knees from squats. I'm 29 and I have never had hip pain in my life! My shoulders were in pain from having my arms so far back on the LBBS and then beating them further by benching/OHP the same day. I switched to something with a bit slower progression while my body got used to the lifts and slowly everything started healing and I'm lifting mostly pain free now. (shoulders are at 90% because the LBBS really stretches them out still. But its way better by now).

If you take a look at the threads on this forum, it looks like many people have the same issues. Hip pain. Shoulder pain. Elbow pain. Knee pain. Some is caused by form error. But much of it really seems to be caused by someone diving in too far too fast.
Am I missing something?

I'm going to have to second the idea that a lot of this sounds like un-diagnosed form errors. The elbow pain in particular sounds like a form issue, especially with your comment about keeping your arms so far back. The Elbow Problem | Jordan Feigenbaum

[timelinex]

I once had some of the aches and pains the OP describes despite my perfect form.
So I saw a SSC.
Turned out my form wasn't perfect. After the SSCs fixed my squat the pain she went away.

I dont disagree. I really want to see a SSC coach to help with form. Unfortuately the closest one is 45+ min away. Regardless, I am soon to the point that I will drive that far to atleast see them a few times.

At this point though, I really don't have many pains/ache's caused by the movements. I replaced SS with a slower progression program (that still did the main compounds) and I started feeling better as my body got used to the movements and wasn't pushed as hard. Ultimately I believe I would have been further if I started this way than SS because I was set back and had to go light many times during the last 6 months due to pain. It does not help that I wakeboard which is hard on the joints as it is.

I think you didn't quite follow the program if you were benching and pressing on the same day

Alternating days, hence the dash.

Regardless, I DID NOT DO THE PROGRAM as prescribed and said that in my OP.

I asked this same question when I went through my LP last year. I don't remember my exact numbers, but in about 4-5 weeks my squat went from 165 to 265, deadlift from 190 to 295, bench from 175 to 245 and press from 90 to 145. It really beat me up. My joints were aching, my hips felt like shit, etc.

I'm 6'1" and a few weeks shy of 36 now. When I started LP, I weighed 222 and now I weigh 240 most days.

Since I was physically inactive before starting the program, I think the sudden and steep rise in intensity is what hurt me. At 4-5 weeks into the program, most sets started to feel really hard. I think that's what causes pain in some novices--going from 0 to 100 in no time at all and there are structures that just don't adapt as quickly as the muscles, and become susceptible to inflammation and injury when doing high intensity for your last few weeks of LP.

It's been over a year now and I really don't ache anymore except when I intentionally have high volume or high intensity weeks. It's amazing to me that I used to eat so much ibuprofen during my LP, but now pain isn't even an afterthought. My biggest concern these days is whether I'm getting enough sleep.

My advice to you, and what I should have done myself, is switch to advanced programming sooner than later, where you add in a light day for squats on day 2--especially if you're getting beat up. Slow your progression on bench and press with fractional plates if you have them (and you should). And switch to 5-pound or 2.5 pound jumps on your deadlift. Slow down a little and take it easy. If takes you another 4-6 weeks to finish your LP because of this, you won't die. But if you get injured pushing intensity, you'll have to reset.

The last and obvious thing is to get your form checked. I saw a few SSCs in person during my first few months of LP and it really accelerated my learning curve in performing the lifts.

Thats kind of what I did. I chose a program that revolved around the same compound lifts but used less intensity and a slower progression until my body got used to the lifts. I refuse the mask the pain/injury with NSAIDS that are actually proven to delay recovery. I definitely think the 0 to 100 portion is part of the problem. Before I started SS I didn't work out for a solid 6+ months.

I still recommend SS to any new lifter. So this isn't an Anti-SS post.

Height/bodyweight before/after?

6ft 175lb in January and 197lb as of today. I am currently gaining 1-2LB a week. I have added 125LB to my squat (260LBx5) and 55lb to my bench press (235lb x5). I've finally been pain free recently and my squat is growing strong each and every squat workout.

[timelinex]

I'm going to have to second the idea that a lot of this sounds like un-diagnosed form errors. The elbow pain in particular sounds like a form issue, especially with your comment about keeping your arms so far back. The Elbow Problem | Jordan Feigenbaum

I hear you. I have read this article and every single article I have found Rip write on the issue and watched every squat and grip video he has made. At the risk of sounding like I have "special snowflake" syndrome, my issue was flexibility and not simply form (like elbow location or holding bar too low). At the start of this year I could barely reach past my knees while standing and now I am finally within a foot of the ground. In January I could barely get my hands far enough back to comfortably High bar squat. No joke! I could get into the low bar position only after alot of stretching and withstanding the uncomfortable pain during the squat. I stuck through it and after months of doing it and doing shoulder disconnects every day, I can finally get into the LBBS position with only mild discomfort. I'm getting there. But there has been alot of pain involved to get there. This of course is not the programs or it's fast progression's fault.

Maybe working on terrible flexibility and doing SS at the same time is too much for the joints/ligaments/tendons (recovery wise) and thats why I had the issues. I don't know. Hence my thread.