Strong enough for what?

[Crom]

What is the specific trade-off... seriously... two identical athletes, but one squats more than the other... the stronger one will win.

I am here at a Starting Strength forum to learn, and I obviously do believe it is a "good thing".

But seriously, if you guys would go enter a road bicycle race with a few hills in it, or participate any other sport that has a serious endurance component, you would quickly realize why it's not nearly that simple. Extra strength implies extra muscle mass and weight, and that really does come at a cost to other energy-production systems. There is also the question of whether training time spent weight-training could simply be more effectively spent doing more interval or endurance work.
Really...just go enter some competitions. It is an eye-opening experience to be simply unable to keep up with people who have Mahatma-Gandhi arms and legs, while you are telling yourself "I know I can pound these pedals much "stronger" than that guy!"

But I wouldn't really 'argue' about these points. Everyone is trying to be the best they can be, and doing what they think is right. Just another perspective.

[Mark Rippetoe]

But seriously, if you guys would go enter a road bicycle race with a few hills in it, or participate any other sport that has a serious endurance component, you would quickly realize why it's not nearly that simple.

What makes you think that we have no experience with this? What makes you think we have never trained endurance athletes or competed in endurance sports ourselves?

Extra strength implies extra muscle mass and weight, and that really does come at a cost to other energy-production systems. There is also the question of whether training time spent weight-training could simply be more effectively spent doing more interval or endurance work.

No shit, Crom? Really? Well goddamn, I completely forgot about this! Never entered my mind!!!!

[Brodie Butland]

Really amazing stuff here--thanks for sharing!

This excellent post is quite a testament to the axiom: if your conclusions don't match reality, it's time to rethink your premises.

[Crom]

What makes you think that we have no experience with this? What makes you think we have never trained endurance athletes or competed in endurance sports ourselves?
No shit, Crom? Really? Well goddamn, I completely forgot about this! Never entered my mind!!!!

Well, #1, I am not necessarily talking about you personally, I am only responding in general to the comments. But you have done some endurance sports ?

and #2: I have no doubt you have trained some endurance athletes, and probably some successful ones. Remember that the question is a trade off between what each individual should do to optimize their particular abilities.
But is anyone in top level road racing or running following "The SS program"? A lot of endurance athletes train with weights, but exactly the sort of NON-"linear-progression" stuff that often gets ridiculed. Also, remember that a lot of genetically-gifted people can still do well even when training very ineffectively

In the end, like I said, I won't really 'argue' about it. But I just don't see many "strong" (in the SS sense) people being successful at sports with a significant endurance component. If they are there, just let me know.

Having said that, I am certainly nowhere near the top level of any sport, so being "stronger" undoubtedly would help me and probably most other people.

[Pawn]

I am here at a Starting Strength forum to learn, and I obviously do believe it is a "good thing".

But seriously, if you guys would go enter a road bicycle race with a few hills in it, or participate any other sport that has a serious endurance component, you would quickly realize why it's not nearly that simple. Extra strength implies extra muscle mass and weight, and that really does come at a cost to other energy-production systems. There is also the question of whether training time spent weight-training could simply be more effectively spent doing more interval or endurance work.
Really...just go enter some competitions. It is an eye-opening experience to be simply unable to keep up with people who have Mahatma-Gandhi arms and legs, while you are telling yourself "I know I can pound these pedals much "stronger" than that guy!"

But I wouldn't really 'argue' about these points. Everyone is trying to be the best they can be, and doing what they think is right. Just another perspective.

If you think that competetive cycling (in any form) involves Gandhi looking people you are quite mistaken.

TourDeFranceQuads.jpg

There is confusion between 'endurance sports' and 'endurance hobbies'. If you are running marathons with the goal of 'completing the marathon' then you are not competing -- its Man Vs Self not Man Vs Man.

[Crom]

If you think that competetive cycling (in any form) involves Gandhi looking people you are quite mistaken.

TourDeFranceQuads.jpg

LOL! Those guys are NOT in an "endurance sport". They are track sprinters, and their effort last about 30 seconds.
But, yes, they are "cyclists".

Tour de France winner, Bradley Wiggins


Fabian Cancellara was one of the "bigger", "more powerful" professional riders who specialized in one-day races over generally flat terrain, and time trials.


Just responding to Pawn's picture

[sbrl_19]

If you think that competetive cycling (in any form) involves Gandhi looking people you are quite mistaken.

The guys in that picture are track specialists. The top guys who ride the grand tours, who are more or less the face of the sport, are bean poles. Andre Greipel who they call "the gorilla" is 6'1" and 180lbs. Chris Froome looks like a preying mantis. I'm with you that not everyone in the sport is like that, but you can't say competitive cycling in any form doesn't involve Ghandi looking people. The highest profile events are dominated by them.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Well, #1, I am not necessarily talking about you personally, I am only responding in general to the comments. But you have done some endurance sports ?

And I am not talking about me personally either. I said "we" meaning our coaches collectively. And of course I have done endurance sports -- I'm 61 and have never sat on my ass. I've done lots of things besides responding to repetitive generalizations about this program on the internet.

and #2: I have no doubt you have trained some endurance athletes, and probably some successful ones. Remember that the question is a trade off between what each individual should do to optimize their particular abilities.

No shit???? Goddamn, I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT, Crom, you fucking genius!!! None of us HAVE EVER EVEN CONSIDERED THIS!!! Such powerful insight withers my self-confidence!!

But is anyone in top level road racing or running following "The SS program"? A lot of endurance athletes train with weights, but exactly the sort of NON-"linear-progression" stuff that often gets ridiculed. Also, remember that a lot of genetically-gifted people can still do well even when training very ineffectively

Once again, such deep insight into the nature of sports causes me to doubt my capacity to even hold a valid opinion on this matter!!! With 3 short sentences, you shred my analysis and my confidence in my own reasoning ability.

[timelinex]

If there is a small percentage of muscle fibers (10-15%) that can be trained to go either way (slow or fast). Wouldn't strength training take away possible fibers from maximizing endurance? Or is the idea that the overall gain from the strength, more than the loss in possibly slow twitch muscle fibers.

[Pawn]

The guys in that picture are track specialists. The top guys who ride the grand tours, who are more or less the face of the sport, are bean poles. Andre Greipel who they call "the gorilla" is 6'1" and 180lbs. Chris Froome looks like a preying mantis. I'm with you that not everyone in the sport is like that, but you can't say competitive cycling in any form doesn't involve Ghandi looking people. The highest profile events are dominated by them.

Lance_2005.jpg

Okay, Armstrong in 2005. He isn't a beanpole... not a powerlifter... but not a stickbug.

TdF Podium.jpg
Compared to...
gandhi.jpg