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Thread: Hex Bar

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    And there is ample empirical evidence that people can lift more with the hex bar than with the straight bar (check out Strength Level - Weightlifting Calculator (Bench/Squat/Deadlift)).
    We need be careful with the concept of empirical evidence. Unless we can be sure that both types of lifts were done with proper form across the population and variables like differential grip quality of the bars, height of the grip location, variance between the actual weight of the bars/weights and the listed weights, etc. there is a very good chance that this evidence is not sound.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    Here's what I think is a valid question, or argument. There are two studies that show that a person can lift more with the hex bar, than with the straight bar. And there is ample empirical evidence that people can lift more with the hex bar than with the straight bar (check out Strength Level - Weightlifting Calculator (Bench/Squat/Deadlift)). And try it out for yourself. Whatever is your max deadlift, grab a hex bar, load the plates and try for yourself. It's easier to lift those same weights using the hex bar.

    With that in mind, we perform the low bar squat primarily because we can "maximize the use of all the muscle that can potentially be brought into the exercise and thus be strengthened by it". I know there are secondary reasons for low bar (less stress on knees - for example), but the primary reason is that it engages more muscle, we can lift heavier weights, and therefore strengthen more muscle.

    If that is the case, then surely we could apply that very same logic to the hex bar vs straight bar. If a person can lift more weight using the hex bar, those same principles must apply. And for the purists, that say "well, of course you can lift more weight... there's more quad involvement... I don't want quad involvement. I do squats for quads. Fine... then surely the RDL or SDL is a better exercise if you want to minimize quad involvement.
    Go back and read this again more carefully. You cite, correctly, that our criteria for exercise selection includes the involvement of the most muscle mass, in order to lift the most weight, in order to get stronger. You forget, however, the other criterion having to do with the longest effective range of motion. So, more muscle, over the largest effective range of motion, to move the most weight. Your error is you insist on an exercise that has been established through mechanical analysis to not satisfy all of these criteria, plus has additional problems.

    Again, I'll go back to Rip's example of the rack pull, which can be done with heavier weights than the conventional deadlift, to illustrate your error.

    Do you see?

    By the way, we don't do squats for quads.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Illingworth View Post
    We need be careful with the concept of empirical evidence. Unless we can be sure that both types of lifts were done with proper form across the population and variables like differential grip quality of the bars, height of the grip location, variance between the actual weight of the bars/weights and the listed weights, etc. there is a very good chance that this evidence is not sound.
    A very good chance.

    Hex Bar

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Illingworth View Post
    We need be careful with the concept of empirical evidence. Unless we can be sure that both types of lifts were done with proper form across the population and variables like differential grip quality of the bars, height of the grip location, variance between the actual weight of the bars/weights and the listed weights, etc. there is a very good chance that this evidence is not sound.
    True that... but there are several hundred thousand lifts recorded for the straight bar, and 15,000 for the hex bar.... so the law of averages would apply. The difference in the lifts is not just a few pounds either. At the higher end of the spectrum, it's a difference of over 50 pounds. The argument could be ended quite quickly. SS could actually perform the experiment. Who better to judge the merit of the lifts. Take a sample of people, both men and women, of different ages and strength levels, buy a few hex bars (without the upper handles) - and Bob's your uncle.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    Here's what I think is a valid question, or argument. There are two studies that show that a person can lift more with the hex bar, than with the straight bar. And there is ample empirical evidence that people can lift more with the hex bar than with the straight bar (check out Strength Level - Weightlifting Calculator (Bench/Squat/Deadlift)). And try it out for yourself. Whatever is your max deadlift, grab a hex bar, load the plates and try for yourself. It's easier to lift those same weights using the hex bar.

    With that in mind, we perform the low bar squat primarily because we can "maximize the use of all the muscle that can potentially be brought into the exercise and thus be strengthened by it". I know there are secondary reasons for low bar (less stress on knees - for example), but the primary reason is that it engages more muscle, we can lift heavier weights, and therefore strengthen more muscle.

    If that is the case, then surely we could apply that very same logic to the hex bar vs straight bar. If a person can lift more weight using the hex bar, those same principles must apply. And for the purists, that say "well, of course you can lift more weight... there's more quad involvement... I don't want quad involvement. I do squats for quads. Fine... then surely the RDL or SDL is a better exercise if you want to minimize quad involvement.
    No we dont, because we already explained the dangers that come with max out lock out hex bar deadlifs. You cant choose one principle and make your case around that. There are more that needs justification. Consider ROM, worked muscles, movement pattern, overall takeover in life. If your job consists of walking heavy grocery bags all day....

    And secondly you are making up arguments on the get go. First it was easier, now you can lift more weight with it.....


    The movement pattern is too different from the deadlift to qualify it as a pull (correct me if im wrong) and there’s significant trouble with lock out etc. Therefore deadlift, conventional.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post
    Go back and read this again more carefully. You cite, correctly, that our criteria for exercise selection includes the involvement of the most muscle mass, in order to lift the most weight, in order to get stronger. You forget, however, the other criterion having to do with the longest effective range of motion. So, more muscle, over the largest effective range of motion, to move the most weight. Your error is you insist on an exercise that has been established through mechanical analysis to not satisfy all of these criteria, plus has additional problems.

    Again, I'll go back to Rip's example of the rack pull, which can be done with heavier weights than the conventional deadlift, to illustrate your error.

    Do you see?

    By the way, we don't do squats for quads.
    And why is the ROM different for the hex bar than the straight bar (if you don't use the upper handles). The bar is standing at exactly the same height as the straight bar. If I lift both bars off the floor from the same height, and lift the bars to the same height, isn't the ROM the same?

  7. #117
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    I have a Trap Bar that I rarely use because Deadlifts with a Straight Bar are Superior.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maties Hofstede View Post
    No we dont, because we already explained the dangers that come with max out lock out hex bar deadlifs. You cant choose one principle and make your case around that. There are more that needs justification. Consider ROM, worked muscles, movement pattern, overall takeover in life. If your job consists of walking heavy grocery bags all day....

    And secondly you are making up arguments on the get go. First it was easier, now you can lift more weight with it.....


    The movement pattern is too different from the deadlift to qualify it as a pull (correct me if im wrong) and there’s significant trouble with lock out etc. Therefore deadlift, conventional.

    I don't know the dictionary definition of a pull - so I'll cede to someone else's expertise. However, in regards to the first point that it is easier... it is easier in a number of ways, and I can lift more weight. Which is an even better case for said lift. The low bar squat isn't as easy as a high bar squat, it is more difficult to execute, but we do it anyway, because it engages more muscle. The trap bar/hex bar deadlift is easier AND engages more muscle. Two benefits for the price of one.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    True that... but there are several hundred thousand lifts recorded for the straight bar, and 15,000 for the hex bar.... so the law of averages would apply. The difference in the lifts is not just a few pounds either. At the higher end of the spectrum, it's a difference of over 50 pounds. The argument could be ended quite quickly. SS could actually perform the experiment. Who better to judge the merit of the lifts. Take a sample of people, both men and women, of different ages and strength levels, buy a few hex bars (without the upper handles) - and Bob's your uncle.
    Aside from the issues already mentioned about the quality of this data, let's not confuse optimal performance with optimal training. Some people can pull more sumo, and choose to do so in competitive settings. This does not mean sumo is a superior lift to conventional from a training stimulus perspective. Similarly, even if people, on average, can pull more with a hex bar, and I don't know if they do, I have trouble coming up with reasons why a hex deadlift would be better from a training perspective.

    Remember too, when we're talking about optimal exercise selection, more weight is not the only criteria, we also have more muscle mass and highest effective ROM for said muscles. If more weight was the only criteria, we'd all quarter squat.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    And why is the ROM different for the hex bar than the straight bar (if you don't use the upper handles). The bar is standing at exactly the same height as the straight bar. If I lift both bars off the floor from the same height, and lift the bars to the same height, isn't the ROM the same?
    The ROM does not only refer to the total ROM of the barbell during the movement, but also to the ROM of the joints and the corresponding musculature. A conventional pull will produce a different movement pattern than a hex pull since there is a different physical relationship between the barbell and the lifter. The argument is that the movement pattern produced with a conventional pull result in a better (and safer) training stimulus than hex. Plain and simple, you will get stronger, and in a safer way, with conventional deadlifts, than with hex.

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