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Thread: Hex Bar

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    Brilliant! Why didn't we think of that? I need to reevaluate my life.

    Since Brit doesn't seem to do well with sarcasm: We have made this point before. Lots of times. You received the treatment that you did, because you didn't do your homework before posting.
    Respectfully, the Brits invented sarcasm... so there's that. But touche' good man.

  2. #132
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    I can buy that one. But I think a degree of civility should permeate the discussions from both sides. No?

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by donfrancisco View Post
    I have a general point to make that may, and I emphasize MAY, reduce the incidence of acrimony that often arises during the course of various threads.

    I’m someone who reveres rationality, the scientific mindset and intellectual independence. But it is not inconsistent with rationality, the scientific mindset or one’s intellectual independence to exhibit deference for someone’s expertise where appropriate. Because we live in a division of labor society, where there are deep levels of specialization even among professionals of the same profession, it is cognitively necessary to give due weight to what those that have devoted their lives to acquiring mastery of their field have to say. We do this with our medical specialists, with our automotive mechanics and with many of our scientists.

    I see that Rip is often criticized for being dogmatic and dismissive. That has not been my experience. And perhaps that is because, despite the fact that I have supplemented my career as a philosopher by working as a strength trainer (within the HIT/Super Slow paradigm) and martial arts coach for over twenty years, I’ve always approached Rip and the other SSCs with the mindset that I have something to learn from their collectively vast experience with strength coaching using primarily barbell movements.

    As a result of his vast experience and his superior ability to communicate the fruits of that experience I believe that Rip has earned a certain degree of deference. And as someone who has taught courses in logic, I don’t think expressing said deferrence is an example of the argument from authority fallacy. It is a rational recognition of the fact that we can’t know everything and that giving due weight to someone’s expertise is often a fruitful way to initiate our improved understanding of matters outside the purview of our own area of expertise.
    I agree. Couldn't agree more. I think civility and respect needs to come from both the student and teacher, yes? We accord the teacher the respect and deference he deserves. And the teacher hopes that his students surpass him and carry on his ideas into the future.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    I can buy that one. But I think a degree of civility should permeate the discussions from both sides. No?
    Kisses and hugs, trap bars suck cause they create moment arms where there should be none and don't develop the muscles a deadlift is supposed to. (executive summary of last 14 pages).

    Thanks hun!

    xxxooo

    PM for a back rub if you find this upsetting.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    You are right - I can be pedantic. And I get your point about coaches making claims. For me, the real question would be... if lifter A and lifter B (both non competitive lifters) trained for a year, A using the regular deadlift and B using the hex bar AND performing the lift with hips high - like the deadlift... after a year, would there be a major difference in their strength and muscular development? And if not, and the hex bar is easier on the shins, easier on the grip, and (in my experience) easier on the lower back... would there be any reason not to do it? The only reason I can see is why spend the money on the hex bar. At the same time, I trained both my parents (in their 70's), using the hex bar, and it is easier to coach.
    If you are using the same mechanics across both lifts (conventional and hex bar), why would the hex bar be easier on the lower back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    With that in mind, we perform the low bar squat primarily because we can "maximize the use of all the muscle that can potentially be brought into the exercise and thus be strengthened by it". I know there are secondary reasons for low bar (less stress on knees - for example), but the primary reason is that it engages more muscle, we can lift heavier weights, and therefore strengthen more muscle.

    If that is the case, then surely we could apply that very same logic to the hex bar vs straight bar. If a person can lift more weight using the hex bar, those same principles must apply. And for the purists, that say "well, of course you can lift more weight... there's more quad involvement... I don't want quad involvement. I do squats for quads. Fine... then surely the RDL or SDL is a better exercise if you want to minimize quad involvement.
    One of the things I sometimes think about (but have not yet really dove into deeply, or perhaps I just need to refresh my earlier understanding) is the actual purpose of deadlifts. Why do we even do deadlifts in the first place? Rip's answered this a few times, and I should spend some time studying those answers (here's one of them, which is also the first question featured in the Engineering section of Mean Ol' Mr. Gravity).

    I just did some quick and dirty measurements, and with my anthropometry, the (vertical) bar displacement for a low bar squat is 61 cm, while it's around 50 cm for the deadlift. If the bar displacement is, generally speaking, less in the deadlift than the squat, then this is a good high level explanation of why we can generally deadlift more than we can squat.

    But then your question arises: if the squat involves a greater bar displacement (and thus a greater aggregate ROM across the joints), and the squat and deadlift involve the same joints (hip & knee, while keeping spine isometrically locked), why bother with the deadlift at all, given the Starting Strength criteria for the lifts?

    I think one good answer to this question (similar, if not identical, to answers that Rip has given in the past) is that the deadlift can exploit the reduced bar displacement in the following way:

    Less bar displacement means that, for a given load, the muscles (knee & hip extensors) have to do less mechanical work to complete a rep. This in turn means that, relative to the muscles that perform isometrically (e.g. abdominals, spinal erectors, shoulder girdle, etc.), the knee and hip extensors are less likely to be a bottleneck. And this in turn means that the isometric components now have a chance to become the bottlenecks. Which in turn means that the deadlift has the potential to train the isometric components more effectively than the squat does (which is why the deadlift is often referred to as an assistance exercise for the squat).

    As for why we don't do RDLs or Stiff legged deadlifts to achieve this goal, here are some thoughts:

    The RDL is harder to standardize (and therefore to program) since it does not have a well defined starting point. It also doesn't emphasize the "deadness" of a deadlift, since it utilizes the stretch reflex.

    The RDL and especially the stiff legged put enormous strain on the hamstrings, so there's a tissue health consideration.

    More importantly, the lack of quad involvement means that the engine (muscles that act concentrically to produce mechanical work) is weaker, and therefore more likely to become a bottleneck, whereas one of the key purposes of the deadlift is to really test the transmission (isometric components).

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    I agree. Couldn't agree more. I think civility and respect needs to come from both the student and teacher, yes? We accord the teacher the respect and deference he deserves. And the teacher hopes that his students surpass him and carry on his ideas into the future.
    See, that's your problem. You weren't respectful and showed no deference. In your OP you stated, "From my limited experience and limited intelligence, it would seem that the hex bar is superior to the straight bar in several areas." Rip then attempted to enlighten you free of charge and then you respond by referring to scientific studies that support your position. So at first you claim ignorance and then when an expert says something you don't agree with you respond with "studies".

    Here is another thoughtful and helpful reply. Spend more time reading the books and the boards before commenting.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaldrew View Post
    Another reason to forego the trap bar is the simple reason that it's a 300 bucks specialised piece of waste of space. If you'd rather buy one bar and do one movement with it than buy an equally expensive, glorious nippon steel barbell for general lifting and strength training, you need to do some more thinking, especially if you're buying it for a home gym setting and not a powerlifting type gym or what have you where more than one person gets to use it. Exaggeration aside, just spend the extra 300 on another barbell that's up to par. Or give me the 300 dollars. Hold on, I'm looking up my PayPal details now.
    When I initially started lifting weights, I had limited room (no power cage) so started with hex bar, dip/chin station and about 350 in plates. It worked pretty well.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brit67 View Post
    When I initially started lifting weights, I had limited room (no power cage) so started with hex bar, dip/chin station and about 350 in plates. It worked pretty well.
    He just won't read it. The Novice Effect | Mark Rippetoe

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    He just won't read it. The Novice Effect | Mark Rippetoe
    I have now read said article 3 or 4 times. I'm not sure what your point is. Wouid you care to elaborate?

  10. #140
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    starting strength coach development program
    I elaborated in the article. I'm sorry you don't understand.

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