Mechanics for strong squat opposed strong deadlift

[tfranc]

Um, tfrance? Well... yeah, duh. The ratio is way better at 230 (2.17xBW) than at 185 (1.62xBW). The question was about high power to weight ratio, and you've posited a situation where you've increased both your absolute strength and your relative strength. I would've expected a scenario where you would prefer a higher absolute strength even at the expense of lower relative strength, if you're trying to make the point I think you are. Am I missing something?

There are so many things wrong with my post now that look back upon it. It was written is haste and I should have taken more time. Thank you for pointing out and giving me a chance to have a discussion about it.

What I should have said was that unless he has a 39 inch vertical jump, it’s foolish to expect to make the strength gains you are looking to make at a measily 74kg at 6’. His goal should be to gain weight. I assumed he was adverse to gaining weight for strength (which he’s since explained to me isn’t the case), because, as the misunderstanding goes, it’s better to be lighter and strong, as opposed to 230lbs and strong. But with the point I made above and addressing his supposed reluctance to gain weight, I presented that I’d rather have a 500lb squat at 230 than a 200lb squat at 185. Maybe some genetic freaks have squatted 500 at 185, but that’s not him. The next best thing is for him to get strong as possible, and he needs to do that by gaining weight. That is to say, he would be a better athletic performer at 230 with a 500 lb squat than not.

Hope this clears up confusion

[crookedfinger]

Do some powerlifting meets and actually get some experience under your belt. You're nearly 6' tall. You have absolutely no business being in the 74kg class. That's DYEL levels of skinny. Do some meets and you'll see.

I went to USAPL nationals in 2014 at 6'1" 205lbs. I figured that wasn't too skinny, right? It's still 200+. Well, I was by far the skinniest person in the room, embarrassingly so. I was a full head taller than most people. Okay, next try: 2016 nationals at 231lbs. Again, was the skinniest person in the room. I got crushed. Most people in the 231 class are around 5'8". 5'10" is probably the tallest you'll see.

Or to give an example with someone we all know: Fiegenbaum is 5'10". Look at his numbers at 198. (Would love to see what he could do at 242, but that's beside the point). The reality is most of us that don't want to gain weight, but want to be stronger, probably should.

[Mark Rippetoe]

At 242, he would be one of the strongest lifters in the world, without doubt. But I suppose he doesn't want to be one of the strongest lifters in the world. Not everybody can do what Jordan has done, genetics being a factor. If you're not a competitor and your primary interest is abs, don't gain any weight.

[tfranc]

At 242, he would be one of the strongest lifters in the world, without doubt. But I suppose he doesn't want to be one of the strongest lifters in the world. Not everybody can do what Jordan has done, genetics being a factor. If you're not a competitor and your primary interest is abs, don't gain any weight.

Is Jordan pretty genetically gifted would you say? I would love to see what he could really put up at 242 or even 275. He and baraki both. Think he cares too much about abs and that whole becoming a doctor thing or whatever (kidding)

[elVarouza]

Jordan is really strong. Based on what I've seen he's an outlier for height in that weight class. There are some. Layne Norton is another guy who's very competitive in the 198/205 class and I think he's also 5'10" and lean.

Don't get me wrong, I think that 5'10" - 6' and 200-210 and lean is pretty darn solid for most guys who strength train. But purely from a competitive powerlifting standpoint, i.e. the goal being to WIN nationals and/or worlds, it just rarely happens, and especially not at 6' 74kg/163lbs. At 5'10" you'd almost always be looking at the 231/242 classes and 6' at 264/275 or higher. It is what it is. Normally I wouldn't talk about it so strongly but the OP was specifically speaking in the context of powerlifting.

[Jimidasprinkla]

I did a multivariate analysis of the results from the 2017 US Strengthlifting Federation Fall Classic to provide some empirical basis for this discussion, namely our assumption that gaining weight helps to gain strength. No shocker. The results confirm what was already known through common sense. The heavier your are, the stronger you will be in general.

When you control for age and sex, every 1 kg of additional body weight translates to an extra 2.3 kg in the total. This holds up for the individual lifts as well: 1.1 kg on the squat, 0.4 kg on the press, and 0.7 kg on the deadlift for every 1 kg of additional body weight. Never mind that this doesn't add up to 2.3, as it's just rounding error across the models.

Note that this analysis only shows correlation, not causation. We are also dealing with a sample group that self-selected into the Fall Classic. Nevertheless, the multiple linear regression model is very strong for those of you familiar with P values, F statistics, and multiple R.

I'm happy to share the spreadsheet if anyone is interested in the analysis. If you think statistics is bullshit, just ignore the post.

Jordan is really strong. Based on what I've seen he's an outlier for height in that weight class.

This is demonstrably true based on the multivariate analysis above. Benchmarking against the other lifters, we would have expected Dr. Feigenbaum to have a total of 460 kg based on his age, sex, and weight. He actually turned in a total of 709 kg.

[tfranc]

I did a multivariate analysis of the results from the 2017 US Strengthlifting Federation Fall Classic to provide some empirical basis for this discussion, namely our assumption that gaining weight helps to gain strength. No shocker. The results confirm what was already known through common sense. The heavier your are, the stronger you will be in general.

When you control for age and sex, every 1 kg of additional body weight translates to an extra 2.3 kg in the total. This holds up for the individual lifts as well: 1.1 kg on the squat, 0.4 kg on the press, and 0.7 kg on the deadlift for every 1 kg of additional body weight. Never mind that this doesn't add up to 2.3, as it's just rounding error across the models.

Note that this analysis only shows correlation, not causation. We are also dealing with a sample group that self-selected into the Fall Classic. Nevertheless, the multiple linear regression model is very strong for those of you familiar with P values, F statistics, and multiple R.

I'm happy to share the spreadsheet if anyone is interested in the analysis. If you think statistics is bullshit, just ignore the post.



This is demonstrably true based on the multivariate analysis above. Benchmarking against the other lifters, we would have expected Dr. Feigenbaum to have a total of 460 kg based on his age, sex, and weight. He actually turned in a total of 709 kg.

What about current level of adaptation? (Novice, intermediate, advanced)

[Jimidasprinkla]

What about current level of adaptation? (Novice, intermediate, advanced)

This is a great question. The only explanatory variables in the published results were weight, age, and sex. Although there was a high degree of statistical significance with just those three (even more so after I removed the failed attempts), there are some obvious gaps. I'd also like to see training age (to your point) and height (in case BMI is more predictive than weight alone). If we could really invest in a study I'd like to see a measure of genetic aptitude like SVJ. I could be wrong, but I believe these variables would improve the model fit.

Also this regression can't be extrapolated to the general population. This is a group that self-selected into the Fall Classic, suggesting similar health habits, training programs, worldview, etc. I'll speculate that the small strength gain to weight gain ratio is due to this sampling bias. In other words, this group probably has a lot of folks who are past a point of diminishing returns. In the general population, I would guess that a kilo of bodyweight would add much more to the press, for example, then we see in this group.

[Will Morris]

That’s what I’m wondering too. Unless you’ve got a 39 inch vert, you will never, ever be as powerful as you can be if you gain weight. I’d rather have a 500lb squat at 230 than a 300 lb squat at 185. It’s easy to see why.

My question was aimed more directly at the OP's assertion that any athlete at that level is 10% body fat. I have competed alongside Olympic Gold Medalists and former NFL players during my time at the USOC, there may have been one dude that was 10% BF. I'd say the average was 12-18%, which would correspond to the literature that suggests 15-18% being near optimal for athletic performance.