Question about Linear Progression and Micro-Loading

[blues]

My guess is that if you progress less on novice programming than you would on intermediate programming, you are better off switching. That's at least my strategy for known when I will switch.

I'm sure you're right. Knowing just when that point arrives is probably a combination of both art and science.

[Mark Rippetoe]

It's discussed in the you-know-what.

[blues]

It's discussed in the you-know-what.

I own all the "you know whats"...and try to apply the knowledge therein judiciously to my own training.

[Tony Moma]

My thoughts on programming are detailed and explained here: Practical Programming for Strength Training | The Aasgaard Company

Thank you for the link. I look forward to reading it.

It behooves us to understand what is being said here in the proper context. Alan's audience is not the SS, Mark Rippetoe audience. Rip and many other SSCs have at many times and to great lengths discussed the ins and outs, pros and cons of microloading, all of which is still visible on this forum for anyone with the inclination to look it all up. Mr. Thrall is talking to the average person still interested in the "YouTube fitness community" (where lots of people have already opted out from due to boredom and samy content), an audience that probably has not read or will not read any of the many texts that come from this community.

Excellent point that I never thought to consider. The audience he was speaking too probably would not appreciate a more nuanced explanation about microloading the way a Starting Strength audience would, so it's probably more productive to just steer them in another direction.

I'm not knocking Alan, though; he's a smart guy that knows bodyweight is (less than) just a number, evident by the fact he once ate 10,000kcal a day to bulk to 250lb or something to that effect. I expect him to know how this works. Microloading for him might also be suboptimal in the long run given his track record of breaking through barriers in eating in this way. If you're gaining a bunch of weight, you can shoot yourself in the foot by microloading your squat, deadlift, bench, or even press. And shiiiiiiiiiiiiet, if you're going to be intermediate for a long time, it can seem as though microloading merely prolongs the inevitable rather than facilitating necessary growth. But at the end of the day, sweeping statements about programming and training practices are best kept in perspective. Microloading got my pathetic press from 100 to 137. It got my lame clean from 125 to 142. I'm sure it did other great but not impressive things for countless other people, too, and somehow is still useful on things like 1RM attempts on the platform; things I'm sure Alan (and by extension, his SSC, Coach Dr. Baraki Sensei) knows everything about.

Another great point I never thought of - eating. When one can eat like that, it's no wonder microloading is not at the top of his recommendation list. And I don't doubt Alan's knowledge at all either - I just started watching his videos a few weeks ago and can clearly see he has tons of knowledge, I just wish he elaborated a little more on that last point about micro-loading. Thanks for the clarification.

OP, did you actually watch the video? Please provide the specific time stamp for where he "discourages progression".

Admittedly, I could've worded that better. What I meant was that he discourages micro-loading in general. The link in my opening post takes you directly to the timestamp in the video where he says it (11:29), and he offered no further explanation other than "Linear Progression is not supposed to last forever, and I think that it's time to pack your bags and move out of Novice Land".[/QUOTE]

He weighed the plates in his gym, found a variance in 45 lb plates of +/- 4 lbs, and suggested that if you're training in a commercial gym with non-calibrated plates, that bringing your fractional plates to microload 1 lb at a time might not be doing what you think it is.

He also said that microloading can be helpful for the upper body lifts, or for those who are too weak to press a standard barbell. And he said that when you're effectively done with the novice phase, you move on to intermediate programming.

I don't think we're talking about the same video. In the video linked in my opening post, he clearly states that he thinks microloading is ineffective even when accuracy is maintained. He said nothing about upper body lifts.

[Maties Hofstede]

Thank you for the link. I look forward to reading it.

Excellent point that I never thought to consider. The audience he was speaking too probably would not appreciate a more nuanced explanation about microloading the way a Starting Strength audience would, so it's probably more productive to just steer them in another direction.

Another great point I never thought of - eating. When one can eat like that, it's no wonder microloading is not at the top of his recommendation list. And I don't doubt Alan's knowledge at all either - I just started watching his videos a few weeks ago and can clearly see he has tons of knowledge, I just wish he elaborated a little more on that last point about micro-loading. Thanks for the clarification.

Admittedly, I could've worded that better. What I meant was that he discourages micro-loading in general. The link in my opening post takes you directly to the timestamp in the video where he says it (11:29), and he offered no further explanation other than "Linear Progression is not supposed to last forever, and I think that it's time to pack your bags and move out of Novice Land".

I don't think we're talking about the same video. In the video linked in my opening post, he clearly states that he thinks microloading is ineffective even when accuracy is maintained. He said nothing about upper body lifts.[/QUOTE]

Its the same video. From 10.30m on is where he explains when he does use microplates for his clients and just before your timestamp is when he explains that in a commercial gym “with” matching plates its also fine.

You should read the book thats recommended and not base eveyting on a 30sec explanation from youtube, which is easily misinterpreted.

[Chris Lippke]

Admittedly, I could've worded that better. What I meant was that he discourages micro-loading in general. The link in my opening post takes you directly to the timestamp in the video where he says it (11:29), and he offered no further explanation other than "Linear Progression is not supposed to last forever, and I think that it's time to pack your bags and move out of Novice Land".

I don't think we're talking about the same video. In the video linked in my opening post, he clearly states that he thinks microloading is ineffective even when accuracy is maintained. He said nothing about upper body lifts.

In a broad sense, I would safely assume he means that 0.5 - 1.0 lb microloading on the Squat and Deadlift (and I'd go so far as to say for the Press and Bench Press too for the majority of his audience) is not optimal.

He says: "... but if you're nearing the end of your linear progression, and you are grinding out reps, and you're just adding one pound at a time or half pound at a time, even if it is accurate because you have matching plates, I still don't think it's very effective. Linear progression is not supposed to last forever, and I think that it's time to pack your bags, and move out of novice land."

Which, in my opinion, does not fly in the face of the general attitude with respect to programming found here (the community, the books, and what the coaches program and practice): that, for a mid-to-late Novice, microloading (less than or equal to 2.5 lb increments in the working weight) is going to be useful for the Press and the Bench Press (upper body lifts). However, it is not so useful for the Squat or the Deadlift, where modifications in programming will produce more efficient and a higher rate of gains versus microloading.

LP eventually experiences diminishing returns, "ideal" LP being akin to y = x^(1/2), where y = weight on the bar, x = time.
Programming that is slightly more complex but that possesses a greater rate of working weight/time (or "gainz") intersects this curve SOMEWHERE, and that slightly more complex programming is also a function of WHERE it is initiated on the LP curve. Our goal is to optimize where the curves intersect so that the rate of increase in working weight/time is maximal. For the Squat and the Deadlift, the nature of this intersection is such that microloading is outright dismissed (e.g. on the Squat, you go to increasing weight on the bar 5 lb on Monday and Friday instead of 2.5 lb Monday, Wednesday, and Friday). For the Press and Bench Press, the nature of this intersection is such that microloading is optimal. Microloading on the Press and Bench Press too will reach a tipping point when more complex programming would have to kick in in order to achieve the greater rate of increase in working weight/time.
Technically, the Squat and Deadlift would have been "microloaded" (scare quotes gesture hinging at the wrists here) if you went from 10 lb increase for the first few sessions to 5 lb increases.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Practical Programming for Strength Training | The Aasgaard Company

[Chris Lippke]

Practical Programming for Strength Training | The Aasgaard Company

I heard a rumor that The Annotated "Practical Programming for Strength Training" will be coming out in 2018. Margin notes to include: "Yep." "That about sums it up, really." and "More or less... yeah."

[Polishdude20]

OP, did you actually watch the video? Please provide the specific time stamp for where he "discourages progression".

He weighed the plates in his gym, found a variance in 45 lb plates of +/- 4 lbs, and suggested that if you're training in a commercial gym with non-calibrated plates, that bringing your fractional plates to microload 1 lb at a time might not be doing what you think it is.

He also said that microloading can be helpful for the upper body lifts, or for those who are too weak to press a standard barbell. And he said that when you're effectively done with the novice phase, you move on to intermediate programming.

Austin, I've recently gotten my dad to start his LP (at 60 yrs of age) and he's getting to the point in his OHP where 5 lb jumps aren't possible. He trains in a commercial gym so I'm not sure if microloading with 2.5lbs will be accurate based on Alan's video.

Should I still get him a pair of 1.25LB plates and get him to microload? Or should I increase the volume at a certain weight and then jump up by 5lbs at 3X5? For example, Day1: 100 X 3 X 5 Day2: 100 X 3 X 7 Day3: 100 X 3 X 9 Day 4: 105 X 3 X 5 ?

[Pawn]

Austin, I've recently gotten my dad to start his LP (at 60 yrs of age) and he's getting to the point in his OHP where 5 lb jumps aren't possible. He trains in a commercial gym so I'm not sure if microloading with 2.5lbs will be accurate based on Alan's video.

Should I still get him a pair of 1.25LB plates and get him to microload? Or should I increase the volume at a certain weight and then jump up by 5lbs at 3X5? For example, Day1: 100 X 3 X 5 Day2: 100 X 3 X 7 Day3: 100 X 3 X 9 Day 4: 105 X 3 X 5 ?

Isn't this going against the advice even Mr. Thrall had in the video?

He specifically made exceptions for both home and commercial gyms with uniform plates. His concern was the hodge-podge plates that the small gyms tend to use and the tiny fractional plates.