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Thread: Being Productive In The Gym When You Can't Get Stronger

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcknshvl View Post
    This is it, in a nutshell. I think "maintenance" is bullshit. It's code for "I don't want to work hard."
    There comes a time where you have to work even harder to get the same rate of return on your work. Lots of people start a maintenance phase because they have other responsibilities that may keep them from training as hard.
    It is code for "I don't want to work hard". But sometimes, that's not a bad thing after you've at least gone through a novice LP.

  2. #12
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    This is pure gold:

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Baker (KSC) View Post
    I have to have this discussion in the gym with clients all the time based on the population that I train. Sometimes "maintenance" becomes a defacto condition based on circumstances such as age, injuries, medical conditions, scheduling issues, or just simple lack of adherence to a demanding routine. I try not to let my clients adopt the mindset of "maintenance" though. Motivation is hard to maintain when there is no hope of progress, and adherence will slip even further. So, guided by intelligence, we always try to get stronger. Sometimes we keep bumping up against the same old numbers, sometimes we "pop" for new PRs if we can string together a nice little run of consistent attendance. Consistency is the key. Especially with older clients, time out of the gym is killer. It takes forever to work them back up to their personal bests when they miss time so often training become very cyclical. We hold a "peak" for a while, then they go on a vacation, travel for business, or get a small surgery or something and then we spend several months working back up to those top numbers again.

    One thing I do remind them of often though, if they get discouraged by slow progress, is that "maintenance" of strength on a given lift can be considered progress as you age. If a guy is squatting 275 at age 60 and can still hit it at age 65, there is something to be said for that. With every decade the forces of nature are trying harder and harder to push you backwards into physical decline. Maintaining your ground and avoiding having to lower your workload over the years is not an easy task necessarily. But you have to have the mindset of trying to push forward just to hold your ground.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polishdude20 View Post
    There comes a time where you have to work even harder to get the same rate of return on your work. Lots of people start a maintenance phase because they have other responsibilities that may keep them from training as hard.
    It is code for "I don't want to work hard". But sometimes, that's not a bad thing after you've at least gone through a novice LP.
    Janan Ganesh's column in last Saturday's FT tackled this general idea (Twitter link to it below). He contrasted Roger Federer, who's at the top of his sport at 36, with Ronaldinho, the Brazilian soccer international who's about the same age but who peaked years ago and whose career fizzled out because he preferred the good life to hard training.

    Financial Times on Twitter: "Janan Ganesh: Who shows us how to live — Federer or Ronaldinho? https://t.co/ibWGD7bjIR"

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Baker (KSC) View Post
    One thing I do remind them of often though, if they get discouraged by slow progress, is that "maintenance" of strength on a given lift can be considered progress as you age.
    I’ve made the same argument (along with many others) for client’s continuing receipt of PT and OT in nursing home facilities when Medicare’s 100 day coverage would cut out due to the client’s reaching a plateau in treatment. They’d say that the client is no longer progressing in their treatment. Sometimes the fact that the client’s condition is maintaining, and not worsening, is progress. Thankfully, this position is now settled law.

    Anyhow, just goes to show you that the struggle continues to the bitter end. Progress will become maintenance at some point. Best to fight it off for as long as possible.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Williams View Post
    I’ve made the same argument (along with many others) for client’s continuing receipt of PT and OT in nursing home facilities when Medicare’s 100 day coverage would cut out due to the client’s reaching a plateau in treatment. They’d say that the client is no longer progressing in their treatment. Sometimes the fact that the client’s condition is maintaining, and not worsening, is progress. Thankfully, this position is now settled law.

    Anyhow, just goes to show you that the struggle continues to the bitter end. Progress will become maintenance at some point. Best to fight it off for as long as possible.
    There is a saying in Hebrew, drawn from the Book of Psalms 84:7, and now idiomatic in the lexicon, that one should go from strength to strength. What it means, that no matter of age, condition, or circumstance a person should seek accomplishment and springboard to the next. It seems apt as a pun and an imprecation worthy of consideration, in the context of this discussion.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Burnett View Post
    There is a saying in Hebrew, drawn from the Book of Psalms 84:7, and now idiomatic in the lexicon, that one should go from strength to strength. What it means, that no matter of age, condition, or circumstance a person should seek accomplishment and springboard to the next. It seems apt as a pun and an imprecation worthy of consideration, in the context of this discussion.
    Absolutely. I’ve always believed that we are built to be productive both from a physical and from an intellectual standpoint. This is the case regardless of where we start the process. To the extent we are idle in either area, negative outcomes result and are always palpable. The worst part is that it’s cumulative. And as we age the negatives of not performing become greater. And the benefits from performing is less deterioration, ie, maintenance. Having seen the numerous ways that our bodies can betray us, maintenance is key.

  7. #17
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    I am sometimes in the situation where I need to postpone a workout one or two days due to other commitments, which essentially turns three workouts per week into two. I'm currently on LP, and that means I sometimes get a week between presses or benching, and I end up repeating the same weight and working through three grinder sets, since especially these two lifts feel close to a stall.

    If I before a given session know that I will have more than enough days of recovery (and possibly some detraining), is it a good idea to, say, do one or two sets at the planned weight, and then add two or three back-off sets so that total volume increases that session? My thoughts are that the added volume would be tolerated with longer recovery, and perhaps beneficial in order to prevent detraining, but I would avoid the risk of missing reps on the second or third set (with the accompanying mental aspect).

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle View Post
    I am sometimes in the situation where I need to postpone a workout one or two days due to other commitments, which essentially turns three workouts per week into two. I'm currently on LP, and that means I sometimes get a week between presses or benching, and I end up repeating the same weight and working through three grinder sets, since especially these two lifts feel close to a stall.
    Have you ever tried just training through the program, i.e. loading the weight on the bar that you program calls for and doing the sets, after making sure that your jump is not too big, that you've rested enough between sets, and that your recovery efforts have been focused in that direction? Instead of assuming that it's going to be "too hard" based on your subjective perception of the warmup and minor schedule deviations, I suggest that you just do the program.

    If I before a given session know that I will have more than enough days of recovery (and possibly some detraining), is it a good idea to, say, do one or two sets at the planned weight, and then add two or three back-off sets so that total volume increases that session? My thoughts are that the added volume would be tolerated with longer recovery, and perhaps beneficial in order to prevent detraining, but I would avoid the risk of missing reps on the second or third set (with the accompanying mental aspect).
    A novice lifter on a LP derives no benefit from lighter volume as back-off load. I can't imagine where you got this idea, but it doesn't work as well as just doing an occasional harder-than-you-like-it-to-be workout.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle View Post
    I am sometimes in the situation where I need to postpone a workout one or two days due to other commitments, which essentially turns three workouts per week into two. I'm currently on LP, and that means I sometimes get a week between presses or benching, and I end up repeating the same weight and working through three grinder sets, since especially these two lifts feel close to a stall.

    If I before a given session know that I will have more than enough days of recovery (and possibly some detraining), is it a good idea to, say, do one or two sets at the planned weight, and then add two or three back-off sets so that total volume increases that session? My thoughts are that the added volume would be tolerated with longer recovery, and perhaps beneficial in order to prevent detraining, but I would avoid the risk of missing reps on the second or third set (with the accompanying mental aspect).
    I think people over estimate the potential negatives of the occasional scheduling conflict that causes one to miss a workout or even a couple of workouts. Missing a week or more is a little different, and missing days more than just occasionally is also problematic. However, for my clients that bust their ass in the gym, and continue to eat to support recovery even when out of the gym, hell, half the time they do better after an extra day or two of rest. If you think you are detraining after 3-4 days it's in your head.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    A novice lifter on a LP derives no benefit from lighter volume as back-off load. I can't imagine where you got this idea, but it doesn't work as well as just doing an occasional harder-than-you-like-it-to-be workout.
    Even at an RPE of 8.97325?

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