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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Depends on your police work. If parking tickets is all you do, it's silly. If breaking up a bar fight composes even a small fraction of it, who do you think is more effective, the 6'4" 245-pound man, or the 5'2" 135-pound man?
    They should be 6 ft tall? I’ve seen some extremely talented fighters who were short. But sure height and weight would be a benefit in your example. I met an “extremely” tall gentleman who is a Marine, and I wondered if that would actually be a detriment to him. It all would depend upon the situation. In any event, the military seems to have plenty of tall and short guys who have done some heroic, badass things. And there are an enormous number of tough guys who are under 6 ft tall (which was the requirement Wal mentioned). In any event, does the police force have an excess number of candidates to choose from? I’d rather hear that they are evaluated on a case by case basis as the candidate pool allows.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    The only advantage a short cop has is that it's easier to get underneath the center of gravity of most of the people they have to subdue in order to throw them in a takedown. Sadly, given the potential for injury to those other people and the propensity for ensuing litigation, those type of takedowns do not fit the kinder, gentler, manner in which order is expected to be maintained these days by lawyers. From my own anecdotal observations and experience, short cops suffer greatly from two things.

    * Little Man's Disease, which is an overcompensation by the short cop to make sure everyone knows they are in charge.
    * Bad guys seeing short cops as less capable and so more likely to challenge or resist them than they might, say, a 6'+ bigger cop.
    Sounds like you might have been a cop at one time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Williams View Post
    They should be 6 ft tall? I’ve seen some extremely talented fighters who were short.
    If the idea is NOT to be in a fight if you don't have to be, it doesn't matter who the best fighters are. What matters is the perception of who is going to win the fight. In what circumstances is there more likely to be a fight, one short skinny cop or 5 big tall cops? This is very important, because outnumbered outweighed cops tend to shoot people that lots of big tall cops don't need to shoot.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Williams View Post
    They should be 6 ft tall? I’ve seen some extremely talented fighters who were short. But sure height and weight would be a benefit in your example. I met an “extremely” tall gentleman who is a Marine, and I wondered if that would actually be a detriment to him. It all would depend upon the situation. In any event, the military seems to have plenty of tall and short guys who have done some heroic, badass things. And there are an enormous number of tough guys who are under 6 ft tall (which was the requirement Wal mentioned). In any event, does the police force have an excess number of candidates to choose from? I’d rather hear that they are evaluated on a case by case basis as the candidate pool allows.
    Would that it were ONLY height. But once the physical attributes that make doing the LE job start getting deconstructed to make it "more fair" and "inclusive", the requirements, standards, or thresholds for strength get tossed out too. Because, Equality uber alles! And damn the consequences to protecting the public who rely on effective law enforcement. Every gender identification, racial, and ethnic group MUST be proportionally represented in public service. Otherwise unfairness will ensue.

    Ask yourself what is more important. Effectiveness or fairness or equality? One of these three things is based on the expected outcomes for those who depend on the organization to do the job Joe and Jane Citizen expect to them to do to keep them safe.

    The others? Not so much. They are more to salve the conscience of social justice warriors who are loathe to do more than stand on the sidelines with video phones and talk shit about those who will do what they are not prepared or capable or willing to do themselves. Merely comment on it after someone else has shoveled the shit out of the stall for them.

  4. #34
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    Okay, I’ll concede on this! So maybe, in general, the scrappy short guys aren’t as effective from a deterrence standpoint. And
    maybe their stature may necessitate more aggressive handling to gain advantage as well. I guess all the shorter guys will be relegated to writing tickets.

    Seriously though, I think it would be a tough standard that would be hard to maintain (even outside of the discrimination piece). And I still think a lot of talent would be left on the table. I’m opposed to strict frameworks, in general. Given the variety of fact patterns that could apply, the benefits aren’t always optimal. The police having flexibility in their hiring to choose the best, strongest, brightest candidates without this sort of test would still be better in my mind. The tall factor could be a check mark on an ongoing list of pros, but not necessarily a deal killer.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Williams View Post
    Okay, I’ll concede on this! So maybe, in general, the scrappy short guys aren’t as effective from a deterrence standpoint. And
    maybe their stature may necessitate more aggressive handling to gain advantage as well. I guess all the shorter guys will be relegated to writing tickets.
    Somebody has to write parking tickets.

    Seriously though, I think it would be a tough standard that would be hard to maintain (even outside of the discrimination piece). And I still think a lot of talent would be left on the table. I’m opposed to strict frameworks, in general. Given the variety of fact patterns that could apply, the benefits aren’t always optimal. The police having flexibility in their hiring to choose the best, strongest, brightest candidates without this sort of test would still be better in my mind. The tall factor could be a check mark on an ongoing list of pros, but not necessarily a deal killer.
    That's the way it is now. And it works perfectly, thank god.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Williams View Post
    Okay, I’ll concede on this! So maybe, in general, the scrappy short guys aren’t as effective from a deterrence standpoint. And
    maybe their stature may necessitate more aggressive handling to gain advantage as well. I guess all the shorter guys will be relegated to writing tickets.
    Let me ask you this. Have you ever seen a male quasi-LE person writing parking tickets? There's an entirely non-sexist reason there are people called meter maids. Like that loverly Rita the Beatles wrote a song about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Williams View Post
    Seriously though, I think it would be a tough standard that would be hard to maintain (even outside of the discrimination piece). And I still think a lot of talent would be left on the table. I’m opposed to strict frameworks, in general. Given the variety of fact patterns that could apply, the benefits aren’t always optimal.
    I, for one, am confused. What exactly does this mean in other than in powerpoint, HR, and conference room performance speak? I've been retired for two years and my translation skills have become rusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Williams View Post
    The police having flexibility in their hiring to choose the best, strongest, brightest candidates without this sort of test would still be better in my mind. The tall factor could be a check mark on an ongoing list of pros, but not necessarily a deal killer.
    So are you advocating dropping physical agility and strength tests for LE as well? Just to make it more fair, after all. Because in the business world, the boxes that used to contain copier and printer paper have been cut in half. The older boxes were deemed too difficult to lift. Which is further evidence of the differences in the business venue and outside cubicle world. Where failure to perform might mean more than a bad evaluation. You or someone else could get seriously hurt or dead. Even for something as simple as not being able to push a car out of an intersection, because FAIR!

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    Would that it were ONLY height. But once the physical attributes that make doing the LE job start getting deconstructed to make it "more fair" and "inclusive", the requirements, standards, or thresholds for strength get tossed out too. Because, Equality uber alles! And damn the consequences to protecting the public who rely on effective law enforcement. Every gender identification, racial, and ethnic group MUST be proportionally represented in public service. Otherwise unfairness will ensue.

    Ask yourself what is more important. Effectiveness or fairness or equality? One of these three things is based on the expected outcomes for those who depend on the organization to do the job Joe and Jane Citizen expect to them to do to keep them safe.

    The others? Not so much. They are more to salve the conscience of social justice warriors who are loathe to do more than stand on the sidelines with video phones and talk shit about those who will do what they are not prepared or capable or willing to do themselves. Merely comment on it after someone else has shoveled the shit out of the stall for them.
    He is the fitness test for the Victoria Police.

    The fitness test includes the following components:

    · Grip test (30kg in each hand)
    · Illinois agility run (20 seconds)
    · Push-ups (5 successive push ups on toes)
    · Prone bridge (hold for 60 seconds)
    · Obstacle climb (1.3m)
    · Swim (100 metres in 4 minutes)

    YouTube

    https://www.policecareer.vic.gov.au/...st%20Guide.pdf

    Anybody want to join?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    Let me ask you this. Have you ever seen a male quasi-LE person writing parking tickets? There's an entirely non-sexist reason there are people called meter maids. Like that loverly Rita the Beatles wrote a song about.
    I know that I do not care about this part of the subject enough to discuss it any deeper.

    I, for one, am confused. What exactly does this mean in other than in powerpoint, HR, and conference room performance speak? I've been retired for two years and my translation skills have become rusty.
    I am not sure if you are referring to the odd symbols or my writing. If it relates to the symbols then I apologize. I thought that I did not have this issue when typing from my iPhone. But it appears that I do. I am trying to figure it out. I will see if I can try a different browser. Until then, I will avoid contractions and sound more robotic.

    As for the writing, I believe it was fairly straightforward. Strict height requirements and not considering the total candidate willl result in the exclusion of some great candidates. There are plenty of tall dumb oafs. I would rather they not work in LE. There are plenty of tall wimpy guys as well. And there are also plenty of guys under 6 feet tall who are intelligent, strong, and capable. Height is not a be all end all.

    So are you advocating dropping physical agility and strength tests for LE as well? Just to make it more fair, after all. Because in the business world, the boxes that used to contain copier and printer paper have been cut in half. The older boxes were deemed too difficult to lift. Which is further evidence of the differences in the business venue and outside cubicle world. Where failure to perform might mean more than a bad evaluation. You or someone else could get seriously hurt or dead. Even for something as simple as not being able to push a car out of an intersection, because FAIR!
    This is nonsense. I never suggested any of the above. What planet are you on? Perhaps you should reread what I have written and stop speculating about my mindset. You are not very good at it.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Williams View Post
    Perhaps you should reread what I have written and stop speculating about my mindset. You are not very good at it.
    You're not the first to notice this.

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