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Thread: Michael Wolf SSC: The Four Criteria

  1. #1
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    Default Michael Wolf SSC: The Four Criteria

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    Was "balance" considered as an additional explicit criterion? The four criteria as stated are seemingly also fulfilled by machines which exercise multiple joints, such as Hammer Strength machines or smith machines -- one can do something like squatting and pressing by rotating or sliding a weight. It seems that most people can generate more force with a machine, and that it's not solely due to favorable leverage.

    So is "while solving practical balance problems" already embedded within the four criteria? (I suggest "practical" in order to rule out silliness like bosu ball squats, although of course one will generate less force when on an unstable surface.)

    I get that the original context of the four criteria is in the squat chapter just after the paragraphs about balance over mid-foot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD Keip View Post
    Was "balance" considered as an additional explicit criterion? The four criteria as stated are seemingly also fulfilled by machines which exercise multiple joints, such as Hammer Strength machines or smith machines -- one can do something like squatting and pressing by rotating or sliding a weight. It seems that most people can generate more force with a machine, and that it's not solely due to favorable leverage.

    So is "while solving practical balance problems" already embedded within the four criteria? (I suggest "practical" in order to rule out silliness like bosu ball squats, although of course one will generate less force when on an unstable surface.)

    I get that the original context of the four criteria is in the squat chapter just after the paragraphs about balance over mid-foot.
    More muscles get involved to keep you balanced. Therefore, the Smith machine reduces the number of muscles involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Jenkins View Post
    More muscles get involved to keep you balanced. Therefore, the Smith machine reduces the number of muscles involved.
    I think this is the simplest correct answer - more muscle mass is used when the body is required to balance and stabilize itself.

    But even more fundamentally, we might say a prerequisite before we even get to the four criteria, is that the lifts themselves need to be able to be compared apples-to-apples to know for certain whether progress is being made. Two machines that work the same muscles or do the same movement may not be designed in exactly the same manner. Their weight stack is different, their cables that attach to the weight stack are different, even something as simple as how well and often they're maintained - they have a lot of moving parts - is different. Even the same machine will perform differently over time, depending on age and maintenance. They're also one-size-fits-all and unable to accommodate the movement pattern for different anthropometries. Cables can do that but you can't do any heavy main lifts on cable. etc etc etc...lots of very fundamental reasons why even if some of those things are being used as assistance work for a sufficiently advanced lifter, they do not represent a viable option for the serious strength trainee for the main lifts.
    Last edited by Michael Wolf; 04-24-2018 at 12:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    I think this is the simplest correct answer - more muscle mass is used when the body is required to balance and stabilize itself.

    But even more fundamentally, we might say a prerequisite before we even get to the four criteria, is that the lifts themselves need to be able to be compared apples to applies to know for certain whether progress is being made. Two machines that work the same muscles or do the same movement may not be designed in exactly the same manner. Their weight stack is different, their cables that attach to the weight stack are different, even something as simple as how well and often they're maintained - they have a lot of moving parts - is different. Even the same machine will perform differently over time, depending on age and maintenance. They're also one-size-fits-all and unable to accommodate the movement pattern for different anthropometries. Cables can do that but you can't do any heavy main lifts on cable. etc etc etc...lots of very fundamental reasons why even if some of those things are being used as assistance work for a sufficiently advanced lifter, they do not represent a viable option for the serious strength trainee for the main lifts.
    Another issue with replicability: for a Smith machine squat, for example, because balance is no longer an issue, your foot position can vary significantly because the bar is no longer forced to be over mid-foot. So you might set up today with your feet a little in front of the bar, Thursday with your feet a little behind, and Saturday with your feet perfectly centered. All of these are different movements. A barbell squat with your feet behind the bar is also known as a "faceplant," in the technical lingo.

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    Balance as a prerequisite would be another way of looking at it. Or, having already postulated "natural human movement" or "(ergonomic, titratable, more reproducible movement pattern) barbell," these are our four criteria which lead to the primacy of the four main lifts.

    I'd thought of "utilize" muscle mass as just creating leverage, so when more weight is used on a machine, the prime movers are actually creating more force. When multi-joint movement is constrained, proprioception seems to detect external constraint and thus engages antagonist muscles less. Antagonist muscles will take pounds off the bar. But are necessary for balance, since the multi-joint system is unstable and maybe even has second order dynamics (bar flexion, muscle control loop artifacts).

    So not that some muscles are UNutilized (one still has to stand up in a smith machine) but the muscles used for balance are used /more/ when using a barbell -- although sub-maximally, generally in the middle of their force curve. Hypothesis though is that a novice's initial efficiency can improve by using antagonists /less/ (on average) when the balance aspect is trained.

    Also a machine gives one a lighter punishment for any force not in line with vertical: there is a small increase in resistance (granted, it varies based on the particular machine instance), but you still get F*cos(theta) to move the bar up. Unconstrained, when you accelerate the bar out of the slot with F*sin(theta), additional force is demanded to bring the bar back. Else faceplant.

    Thanks, guys.

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