Getting out of the sagittal plane

[PizzaDad]

I was not trying to be dismissive. I was simply trying to peel back a couple layers of fancy talk and get down to the basics of it. The argument seems to defeat itself. Assuming someother type of accessory work, you still have to consider how it makes the body stronger and less likely to incur injury. Walking lunges with the barbell on your shoulders? Would that satisfy work in a different plane? It would definitely leave you with doms and it may qualify as a conditioning exercise and contribute to hypertrophy. But it also has a much greater potential to injure you. injuries to the knee, groin or, hip would be the most likely. But working with any kind of load could cause problems for your neck, back or shoulders, as well. And even if you do it sucessfully, the primary question is how does it make you stronger and less likely to injure yourself in when doing the basic movements of squat, deadlift and press? I don't think it contributes.

[Tucker Benjamin]

I was not trying to be dismissive. I was simply trying to peel back a couple layers of fancy talk and get down to the basics of it. The argument seems to defeat itself. Assuming someother type of accessory work, you still have to consider how it makes the body stronger and less likely to incur injury. Walking lunges with the barbell on your shoulders? Would that satisfy work in a different plane? It would definitely leave you with doms and it may qualify as a conditioning exercise and contribute to hypertrophy. But it also has a much greater potential to injure you. injuries to the knee, groin or, hip would be the most likely. But working with any kind of load could cause problems for your neck, back or shoulders, as well. And even if you do it sucessfully, the primary question is how does it make you stronger and less likely to injure yourself in when doing the basic movements of squat, deadlift and press? I don't think it contributes.

I guess if you provide a different stress via a different plane you may get a new adaptation that could be of some benefit? I think the biggest issue is finding something you can load heavy enough.

[Espen Lund]

What does it mean to load the body in the transverse plane? Running?

[Scaldrew]

I was not trying to be dismissive. I was simply trying to peel back a couple layers of fancy talk and get down to the basics of it. The argument seems to defeat itself. Assuming someother type of accessory work, you still have to consider how it makes the body stronger and less likely to incur injury. Walking lunges with the barbell on your shoulders? Would that satisfy work in a different plane? It would definitely leave you with doms and it may qualify as a conditioning exercise and contribute to hypertrophy. But it also has a much greater potential to injure you. injuries to the knee, groin or, hip would be the most likely. But working with any kind of load could cause problems for your neck, back or shoulders, as well. And even if you do it sucessfully, the primary question is how does it make you stronger and less likely to injure yourself in when doing the basic movements of squat, deadlift and press? I don't think it contributes.

I don't know anything about planes. I've never even flown in one.

But I think any descriptive value they have is limited to yes or no questions. Are you operating within certain planes when doing exercise X? Yes/no. If you're really looking for the basics, I'd point you in the direction of the four criteria: The Four Criteria | Michael Wolf

Notice how "operating within certain planes" isn't explicitly part of those criteria. I think movement of any kind will inevitably involve The Planes (tm), but what separates squats from lunges isn't the specific planes in which one operates. You could operate within the same planes and still be wasting your time.

As far as injury is concerned, I think a tight everything is what prevents injury most of all. Relaxing at the bottom of a squat is riskier than relaxing at the top, and even riskier than staying tight under a load. Despite there being 300lb on your rear delts, you don't feel a pinching sensation there or a crunching sensation in your spine because you're tight. The most effective ROM criterion would probably also explain a few things, since "squatting to injury" instead of depth most definitely precludes effective ROM as you cannot squat as much or as long if you have to stop every so often due to injury. I'm not sure The Planes (tm revoked) do anything to prevent injury, other than they're just always going to be operated in as an inevitability.

I think.

[Joe Heisey]

I guess if you provide a different stress via a different plane you may get a new adaptation that could be of some benefit? I think the biggest issue is finding something you can load heavy enough.

I think the point is that multiplanar movement is already present in the main lifts. If you mean "barbell goes up, therefore sagittal", well the coronal plane is vertically oriented too. Certainly when your hips go back in the squat, or knees go out, there is a component of their movement through the transverse plane.

[PizzaDad]

I guess if you provide a different stress via a different plane you may get a new adaptation that could be of some benefit? I think the biggest issue is finding something you can load heavy enough.

We already have something we can load heavy enough. We have a barbell. And we are using it to create stress which will lead to the adaptation. Watch the knees of someone who is performing a heavy limit set squat. They have to balance that heavy weight so that they don't fall over. All of the supplemental muscles involved in balancing the weight are being worked and they have been worked every rep of every set that the lifter has performed to get to the point where they are lifting that weight. When they finish LP and get into intermediate training they will have some variation in the sets and weights. This will produce increased opportunity for those balancing muscles to develop strength and endurance.
Providing a different stress thru a different plane may create a new adaptation but that doesn't mean it will be of benefit. It may just be a waste of time. And if it hurts you then it is definately a waste of time.
At the beginning of LP I was eager add chinups and cleans to my routine. Why? because I wanted to make sure I was getting those muscles worked also.....additional stress. Additional complexity. I think we have been convinced by advertising that we have to have complexity to achieve progress. There is also the desire for a magic "pill" that allows us to have results without sacrifice and hard work. Accessory exercises are easy. getting under a heavy bar and doing a 3rd set at a weight that intimidates you is not easy.

[Mark Rippetoe]

What does it mean to load the body in the transverse plane? Running?

Certainly when your hips go back in the squat, or knees go out, there is a component of their movement through the transverse plane.

Doesn't mean anything. The planes already have names, and "transverse" is not one of them.

[Joe Heisey]

Doesn't mean anything. The planes already have names, and "transverse" is not one of them.

Axial plane? Is that the correct term? (I used Wikipedia to get the names; sorry.)

[Mark Rippetoe]

For these purposes, the planes are saggital, frontal, and horizontal.

[Joe Heisey]

For these purposes, the planes are saggital, frontal, and horizontal.

Are the planes considered to "bend" when the human body bends, to accommodate the orientation of each body part? Or is it always treated as one big coordinate system through which individual body parts move?