Sport specificity and strength

[JohnStrangeway]

The topic is on training frequency but bias in favor of the BB in this hypothetical scenario (giving him almost the same weight lifted). I have an above average grip strength for my weight class in strongman, it would be like me using the farmers carry to decide who was stronger between me and a middleweight competitor even though he would beat me in almost everything else. Can the BB match the PL on other lifts or does the squat just happen to natural for the BB? (if you are going for who is "strongest" overall)

I don't think the weight is heavy enough to be a fair comparison. You can grind out some heavy stuff with poor form. The BB could just care about getting the number by any means and the PL may be more focused on lifting with form.

[Mark Rippetoe]

And when was the last time a bodybuilder squatted below parallel, since "doing quads" doesn't really require this?

Isn't this fun?

[MartinB]

And when was the last time a bodybuilder squatted below parallel, since "doing quads" doesn't really require this?

Isn't this fun?

Do you mean that repeatedly flexing and extending the knee joint through a longer range of motion doesn't "do quads" any better?

[SS-FZ]

Good points above,

Yes, I agree that the test chosen should be effective which means using more than one body part. Perhaps a series of tests, the big 4 + some isolation movements with each having an appropriate weighting towards the total? I think that's probably as close as you're going to get to seeing how "strong" someone is.

What implications that we haven't already thought about did you have in mind?

Well, I think people interested in strength can certainly learn from bodybuilders in the way of building muscle because a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle, and many stronger muscles mean a stronger individual.

- More attention paid to diet (instead of just eating "big", taking a more moderate approach which maximises muscle growth)
- Training methods (tempo lifting, time under tension, drop sets)
- Movement selection (isolation movements are not "useless", assistance exercises can help to drive main lifts)

All while still trying to drive their main lifts up.

[Mark Rippetoe]

- More attention paid to diet (instead of just eating "big", taking a more moderate approach which maximises muscle growth)
- Training methods (tempo lifting, time under tension, drop sets)
- Movement selection (isolation movements are not "useless", assistance exercises can help to drive main lifts)

For the majority of lifters on this board, these things are a distraction from the primary goal of adding weight to the bar for the major exercises every workout or every week. They prevent driving the main lifts up. By the time you get to the point of adding weight every month, you've graduated school.

[Scaldrew]

Comparisons between bodybuilding and strength-based lifting only really works in a commercial gym setting where the average bodybuilder is only marginally weaker than a strength-based lifter. Once you get a serious strength-based lifter in the mix, this entire idea of "well, your muddying the waters by prescribing the deadlift as a test for strength" turns to infinity stone dust. No, a bodybuilder is not going to be as strong as a guy who can deadlift in the upper 200s, almost by definition. If you're going to compare average bodybuilders to weak novices to come to the conclusion that, hmmph, maybe bodybuilders can be are the strong too, at least be honest about it. Outliers don't count either, so don't link any bodybuilders pulling 220 for reps on a bouncy castle.

Rip is right. This discussion isn't fun.

[Sean Herbison]

The question is this: How do you separate the practice of a barbell movement from the strength acquired using that movement if the movement is being used as a test for strength?

How can you test strength without having a certain element of specificity/practice being present?

You don't. If you want to take the skill aspect out of it, you'll have to use a test that both competitors have the same amount of practice with, and ideally the same natural skill with. Good luck accounting for the second part of that. And still, all this will let you know is who's better at applying force in that particular movement.

Now that I think about it, the PL is stronger, he did 205kg. At a meet they dont ask you how often you train, you score what you lift.

True, but at a meet they don't ask how strong you are, either. Like the conventional vs sumo debate, or high bar vs low bar. If someone is capable of low-bar squatting 500, but for some reason decides to high-bar instead and only squats 450, he's still going to lose to the guy low-bar squatting 475, despite actually being stronger than him. Strength is a capability that you can display, not the display itself.

Why is strength tied to deadlift numbers? A man who can deadlift 500 isn't necessarily stronger than a man who deadlifts 450.

He's a stronger deadlifter, and very likely to be stronger at closely-related movements, that's all the test tells you.

If the bodybuilder would beat the powerlifter on most other strength tests besides 1RM on squat, bench and deadlift, it's not unreasonable to consider him generally "stronger" than the powerlifter.

Perhaps a series of tests, the big 4 + some isolation movements with each having an appropriate weighting towards the total? I think that's probably as close as you're going to get to seeing how "strong" someone is.

Sure, more metrics will give you more detailed data. But ultimately it comes down to the term "strength" not being specific unless you specify the application. DirtyRed squats more than me, but I bench and deadlift more than him, so who's stronger? Well, if you want to know specifically who's a stronger squatter, DR is. If you want to know who's a stronger bench presser or deadlifter, I am. And if you want to know who's overall "stronger", adding up the three will give you a better answer, thanks to using more data points.

[TommyGun]

Wow. You lost me at the comparison of a bodybuilder to a someone who strength trains. Then came the semantics about what “truly strong” is. SS-FZ how can ask why a deadlift is an measurement of strength, especially on this board?

Look, I am all for discussion, but maybe take your questions to to a bodybuilder forum somewhere for validation on B.B.

[SS-FZ]

Comparisons between bodybuilding and strength-based lifting only really works in a commercial gym setting where the average bodybuilder is only marginally weaker than a strength-based lifter. Once you get a serious strength-based lifter in the mix, this entire idea of "well, your muddying the waters by prescribing the deadlift as a test for strength" turns to infinity stone dust. No, a bodybuilder is not going to be as strong as a guy who can deadlift in the upper 200s, almost by definition. If you're going to compare average bodybuilders to weak novices to come to the conclusion that, hmmph, maybe bodybuilders can be are the strong too, at least be honest about it. Outliers don't count either, so don't link any bodybuilders pulling 220 for reps on a bouncy castle.

You're making a lot of assumptions here.

Wow. You lost me at the comparison of a bodybuilder to a someone who strength trains. Then came the semantics about what “truly strong” is. SS-FZ how can ask why a deadlift is an measurement of strength, especially on this board?

I ask because i'm interested in strength -- I use the dead-lift to get stronger -- that's what's important to me. I would think that others on this board are too.

Look, I am all for discussion, but maybe take your questions to to a bodybuilder forum somewhere for validation on B.B.

Are you? I don't think its fair that you assign motives to my question. I'm not a "bodybuilder", never have been.

I've read SSBBT and done Mark's program else I wouldn't be here. No harm done in having a discussion is there?

[Sean Herbison]

No harm done in having a discussion is there?

Nope, keep at it. Some people just don't like their assumptions being questioned.