Bench press? Why not dips instead?

[robertdawson]

In SS:BBT you say that regarding full body involvement, pushups are better than bench presses, and dips even more than them. Since the weight on dips can easily be modified considering they are done with more than bodyweight, why do they not have the place in your novice program that the bench press does? I have heard you say that the bench press translates into greater pressing ability, which helps with the press, but couldn't dips do the same albeit more effectively, or do dips generally use less weight than the bench press and are therefore not as useful in that regard?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Because lots of novices can't do a bodyweight dip, and they are therefore too hard to program for the 3 sets of 5 linear progression.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

For someone who can do greater than body weight dips for sets of five, which would be the more useful excersize? Assuming the trainey wasn't planning on competing in powerlifting.

[robertdawson]

Let's say for the purpose of my question take me who is a novice and can do at least 3 sets of 5 with bodyweight
dips. Er, off-topic question: if I have had roughly 2 years lifting experience total, but have had 3 lifting periods separated by two 1-1.5 year layoffs am I considered an "advanced novice", where I have retained some neuromuscular efficiency or something?

Anyway, aside from having to be careful around the sensitive male area with a weighted belt would there be any
reason not to do dips for the main lift instead of bench press? The only other things I can think of are: I have heard that dips are generally more prone to injury, especially shoulder/rotator cuff injuries than the bench
press. Is this true considering they are done with correct form (not going too low and/or dropping to the bottom
really quickly)?

I never have a spotter in the gym. With the bench press I can set the pins right below chest level to spot myself.
With the dip the only way I think I could spot myself reliably is to have the weight come from a weight vest ( which
if I got strong enough I would eventually need one like this, which is way too expensive):



and having a platform so that at the bottom position I could stand firmly on it with straight legs. With the legs
being folded up during the lift, if I failed to complete a rep, it might be hard to get them down there fast enough.
And if I were using a weight belt, it might complicate the issue with the height of the box and/or getting my feet
down.

The movement may use typically less weight than the bench so it does not produce the same raw pressing power and can't translate as much into the press.

Variation of it for use in intermediate or advanced training might be difficult.

If the dip really is a more useful exercise than the press, I suppose finding a solution to these would be well
worth it. I don't know, but the idea of a limit single (later in intermediate stage) on the dip sounds awkward.
Maybe it is just that I have never heard of anyone doing that.

[JakeVohs]

I can do 3 sets of 8 across with 95 lbs. added on to my bodyweight. I've done these in previous routines before discovering Starting Strength. Should the dips be in the routine in place of bench press for me?

[Mark Rippetoe]

The easy answer here is that SS is a barbell training program, and that dips are not a barbell exercise. But since that is a weasel, I'll just say that heavy weighted dips are way easier to get hurt doing. A dip belt is the traditional way of loading them incrementally, and the weight swinging around at the bottom presents a bunch of technical problems for both the execution of the movement and the management of the weight itself before, during, and after the set. The apparatus has never been standardized, the form is subject to ROM problems due to lockout and depth issues, and the bench has become the reference lift. Dips are a very good assistance exercise, and I've used them myself as a bench sub when I couldn't bench due to some weird injury, but I'm afraid they will never be able to replace the bench on a long-term basis.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

We like using heavy chains draped around the neck/trapezius for performing weighted dips as oppossed to a heavy dumbell or plate swinging around your waist. Just FYI.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Further illustrating the lack of standardization. This works fine, I'm sure, but it makes small jumps quite impossible.

[philrussell]

Mark,

In terms of extra resistance for dips, what do you think of powerlifting bands and chains? I agree that the dip belt is both cumbersome (putting 4+ 45 plates between your legs is never fun) and the swinging motion at the bottom throws off the center of gravity of the motion.

I have personally found that adding some combination of a band, crossed across the upper back and the ends in the palms, or the chains across the neck so 3 of the heavier links are lying on the floor, has made the exercise significantly harder without the shoulder joint associated with the dip belt. The same principle can, of course, be applied to pull-ups and push-ups.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I think they are great ideas for making the dips more useful, but not for making the dips a sub for the bench.