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Thread: Squat: hips up before shoulders

  1. #1
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    Post Squat: hips up before shoulders

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    Mr. Rippetoe, I noted that sometimes, specially the last reps of heavier sets of squatting, my hips begin going up before shoulders (so back becomes slightly more horizontal), I feel this also in the bar on my back that have a tendency not only to "go up" but also to slide/roll forward, direction traps (it's a "tendency" I feel in hands, not real movement). Is this a sort of exagerated hip-drive (if possible) or instead no hip-drive at all and a symptom of something other wrong? When this happens I feel the weigth more on toes than on heel and going up is harder because there is a light pause in the meantime.

    Thanks (above all for the patience to understand these written descriptions of movements...).

  2. #2
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    It is probably not an exaggerated hip drive, but rather a failure to keep the low back and hamstrings tight. If this occurs and the back angle becomes excessively horizontal, you increase the length of the lever arm at the hip and fuck up the mechanics. Hip drive is apparent when you see a little suggestion of a back angle change, but a full-blown leaning over is not at all what I look for out of the bottom.

  3. #3
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    My girlfriend just started doing this as the weights got a bit heavier, also as fatigue sets it. First set isn't bad, last set is not so good. I just don't know what cues to use to get her to stop it. She's aware of it, but she doesn't know what to do either.

    I looked through the squat videos and can't find anything else like it. Her head is up while looking down, elbows are raised, hip drive is decent and just is up. Any suggestions Mark? And no, getting a new girlfriend is out of the question.

  4. #4
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    I'd have to see it, Jamie. Sorry, but this is exactly why internet coaching is not something you pay money for -- too many things that need to be seen and not read about.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    It is probably not an exaggerated hip drive, but rather a failure to keep the low back and hamstrings tight. If this occurs and the back angle becomes excessively horizontal, you increase the length of the lever arm at the hip and fuck up the mechanics. Hip drive is apparent when you see a little suggestion of a back angle change, but a full-blown leaning over is not at all what I look for out of the bottom.
    Ok, thanks. Next week I'll film myself and try to understand better the problem and above all if it's a real problem or only a stupid feeling of myself. (Four months ago I'd have never predicted that "squat" was so complicated and challenging respect to its form! Perhaps I overthink a bit about it...).

    @ Jamie
    I tried to "coach" my son (11 years old) squatting with a broomstick (in the meantime trying to learn more myself) and he does the same thing. He comes up first with the butt until back is almost horizontal next does a sort of good morning until standing: it is a "two times" movement natural for him! Boh...

  6. #6
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    This may not be of much help, but I had/have the same problem. Mine was more a result of trying to exaggerate hip drive, and, in the process, shooting the hips backwards instead of straight up, extending the knee without moving the weight. My back angle would flatten out, and I'd end up doing a good morning.

    My fix, as silly as this may sound, was to simply tell myself not to do that anymore. When I tried to think about it and analyze, as I'm prone to doing, nothing seemed to work; eventually, I just had to tell myself to suck it up and squat, and stop thinking about it. One cue that seemed to help me was really getting my upper back and upper erectors tight and keeping them that way during the set, something that gets hard when there is a big weight trying to unlock them. Also, when I get the proper bounce from the hamstrings, I find my ass does what it supposed to do in regards to hip drive; when I don't, I need to exaggerate, or I will end up leg pressing.

    Coach's cue to imagine someone, or actually having someone press on the sacum during the drive might help, though I don't think it would be prudent to do this during heavy sets. Also, make sure she isn't shooting the hips backwards at the cost of quad involvement.

    I hope that wasn't entirely incoherent, and might possibly even be helpful.

  7. #7
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    Mark,

    I told her about how the hamstrings drive you out of the hole and that she should try to tighten them. It was an improvement. Her chest angle didn't close as much and it happened later. I think as her hamstring get stronger and she learns how to use them, it will continue to improve.

  8. #8
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    Mark,

    I'm still struggling with extending the knee and moving the hips backwards/making the back more parallel to the ground. I was wondering if there are any cues you have used in lifters who took the idea of hip drive too far and screwed up the mechanics of the lift.

    I've been trying to simply will myself not to do it, but as you've said before, in the absence of enough yelling, fewer things get done. One thing that helped a bit was actually thinking about driving the bar up now, which helped eliminate some of the good morning of the weight. If I think about hip drive, I get exaggeration. If you have any cues you've used in the past with people who extend the knee and raise the hips without moving the bar that you think might be helpful, please let me know.

    If not, I suppose I'll just continue willing myself to not screw up. A video of me squatting before some of the corrections I've instituted is available here:

    http://strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1467

    While I've gotten better at not shooting the hips back, I still do it in an effort to get hip drive.

    Thank you,

    Steven

  9. #9
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    This particular problem would be a good example of something in need of a cue that would otherwise be wrong. A "Lift the chest" cue would normally be the wrong thing to hear in a squat, because it would typically cause a change in back angle that is detrimental to hip drive, but in this case it is appropriate because the error would be "averaged out" in response to the cue. It is important to know when to cue in this way, and that comes with experience.

  10. #10
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    What worked for me might be another way of thinking of what you suggested; I thought of "moving the bar," which, in addition to helping my hips, keeps the chest up. Perhaps similar to moving the head forward versus moving the hips backwards in the press.

    I'll use your suggested cue, with an added thanks to this forum for convincing me to video tape all of my sessions. While no replacement for the on the spot cueing and experience of a coach, it is far, far better than nothing. Also, it gives me something to do while I'm huffing for five minutes in between heavy squat sets.

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