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Thread: Personal trainer horrified by SS

  1. #31
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    • starting strength seminar april 2024
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    My experience of losing weight is this:

    March 2006 my weight was about 90Kg (not know the fat % but I had a respectable belly). I started the usual aerobic work: on cyclette at first and then running, but no more than 6 Km two or three times at week. Two times a week I was doing also a sort of brief pseudo-strength circuit with some pushups, lat machine and situps. When I could do 6Km in less than 35 minutes I started interval sprinting (mixing various distances from 50 to 800m) alternated with drills for time of calisthenics exercises (like jumping jacks, burpees, sledgehammer work ecc.) similar to Crossfit metcon, running only once a week.

    In about 6 months, with a good and strict diet I lost 15 Kg, exactly 1Kg week average. Good results I think, yes, but: at the beginning, after two or three weeks of circuits I could do 10 pushups (BW 88Kg), after 6 months I could do 11 of them (BW 75Kg)! How much muscle I lost in those 15Kg? And my diet was ipocaloric but protein oriented to prevent muscle loss!

    More: low back pain and shoulder pain got worse. I think if I had did a 6 months on a program like SS and then the program above with a real strength workout instead of circuits I ended in one year with 80Kg and LESS bodyfat than I had on 75Kg. And with less pain in back and shoulder.

    But I'll try it!

  2. #32
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    It's a fair point that "circuit training" can be an idea that varies wildly depending on who's advocating it. I actually work at a health facility so it is possible I am applying my biases to what people mean by the term.

    As an example of circuit training that is NOT the "usual bullshit housewives at your local health facility are doing," while I realize most people around here probably don't look so highly on HIT (disclaimer: I am not a HITer), Arthur Jones' original "circuits" were composed of exercises like barbell squats, weighted dips, and stiff-legged deadlifts. That is obviously another thing entirely from how a lot of personal trainers are going about the idea, or "feeling the burn" on a handful of shitty, selectorized machines.

    Now, as to your hypothetical scenario about the bride-to-be losing 15 lbs, I think we are running into an unnecessary either/or scenario, "excluding the middle," as it were.

    Meaning, just because a person might explode doing verbatim SS if (calories in) were too low or (calories out) were too high does not mean you can't still implement a heavy-for-her resistance training program as a component of her fat loss, and then include additional metcon work, interval training, or even *gasp* good old fashioned steady state cardio on top of this.

    Bear in mind there is a tremendous psychological component to training a person, meaning amongst the various iterations of "what works," a person will have preferences that are only possible to discern by working with him or her. Any given person will also have a variety of contraindications that have to considered, too.

    As above, I would still recommend a resistance training program that is a bit easier to recover from than SS as the backbone of her routine for reasons I've already outlined, assuming we have concluded that SS will be too hard to recover from.

    Getting more specific, some compromise can probably be met via modifying volume (e.g. 2 sets of 5 instead of 3), modifying frequency (e.g. squat 1-2 times a week instead of 3 times a week), or even modifying intensity/load (e.g. push the rep range up slightly to something like 6-8, or 8-12 if need be). Note that, in terms of priorities, however, load on the bar is the thing I'd want to sacrifice last. What might such a routine look like (a bit arbitrary, JUST an example)?

    A
    -
    Squats - 2 sets of 5
    Bench - 2 sets of 5
    Rows - 2 sets of 5
    Weighted Situps - 1 set of ~10 or something

    B
    -
    Squats - 2 sets of 5
    Press - 2 sets of 5
    Assisted Chins - 2 sets of 5
    Deadlift - 1 set of 5

    Something like a Monday - A, Thursday - B type schedule. A routine like this could probably be knocked out in a 30-45 minutes on each day including warmups/cooldowns, and we'd only be committing two days a week to the weights.

    My point here, even if you dislike the above routine, is that there is clearly going to be some middle ground where, even if something like SS isn't doable, we can find some compromise of training variables that allows a person to still integrate a basic, strength training component to their fat loss efforts.

    I think an important point that might be overlooked here is that a beginner is in the somewhat novel position of being able to simultaneously gain strength/muscle and lose fat. As such, foregoing a basic, strength training routine in favor of higher rep, "circuit" type affairs (where the goal is something other than gains in strength) does not seem the path of wisdom to me. That is, of course, just my opinion.

    So, with this backbone of resistance training in place, where our subject is training with weights twice a week, I'd add a couple/few days of "energy system" work to the mix. Metcon work, HIIT, tempo training, steady state stuff - it depends on that person, their likes/dislikes, and their contraindications.

    As an example, if our bride-to-be was a rather large bride-to-be, having her do any form of sprinting/jogging would be a very poor idea, considering the impact forces on her already-large body. I would much rather somebody like this do something more sparing to the joints, even if that meant getting on an elliptical 45 minutes a few times a week.

    Some people find the variety of crossfit type stuff to be more enjoyable than "normal" cardio, and assuming we've determined it's safe for him or her, I would have no problem with our "energy system" work being metcon in nature. Depending on how heavy of loads are involved in this metcon work, we might be able to get by on an even more abbreviated resistance training routine. If our "metcon" is flat out crossfit, where we are already doing 5 x 5 or max effort work in heavy compound movements as a component of our training, a case could be made (particularly for beginners and the over-fat) that our metcon is, in effect, also our resistance training program.

    As a last consideration, I'd offer that fat loss goals, in my experience, are largely met through diet modification. I wouldn't call training unimportant, but, as a bodybuilder I know used to say, "abs are made in the kitchen." All the metcon/"circuit" type training in the world is very, very easily undone with a donut here or there.

  3. #33
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    I lost 30 lbs of fat in 6 months of strength training. I ate 300g of protein a day and only had carbs post-workout. It was just a slight calorie deficit. Now it's 6 months after that and i'm back up to the same weight I was but this time as muscle. The important part is that i gained strength while losing fat.

    I wasn't doing any of Rippetoe's programs, but it was strength focused mostly with heavy sets of 3 of the powerlifts mixed with sometimes things like closegrip bench, good mornings, pullthroughs, and glute-ham raises. What really lost the fat was the diet being dialed in and the 5 morning walks i did a week for 30 min.

  4. #34
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    Apr 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Munro View Post
    Just in answer to one point you made though: I would much rather my girlfriend had the physique of an endurance athlete than that of a strength athlete!
    I think the emaciated figures of endurance athletes compare quite unfavourably with those of strength athletes and other high-intensity athletes. In fact, I think that even relatively untrained people look better than elite-level marathon runners.

    I shudder a bit every time I see self-flagellating joggers running down the Thames in the evenings while all the good people are out there drinking beer.

  5. #35
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    Nov 2007
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    Thanks to everyone for their insight. Great discussion in this thread.

    Just thought I'd explain a bit more why I think doing a textbook SS was just what this girl needed.

    She's young (early 20s), fairly athletic, and wanting to lose around 10 to 15 lbs of bodyfat. Her cardiovascular health is already pretty good.

    There's no rush to lose weight here. I've decided to train her as best I can using SS for the next few months. I suggested that she not even attempt to diet for the first couple of months (other than making an effort to take in lots of protein and eating better quality food in general).

    My rationale for this is simple. Dieting and SS don't go very well together, so she might as well forget about it for the moment and eat at maintenance. At worst she won't lose any weight, and at best, she'll lose weight and look better just from the lifting.

    Best of all, she's loving the program. At first she though she couldn't ever pull off a barbell squat, let alone increase her lifts every workout. So that alone is a good reason to do it. More motivating than aerobics, that's for sure.

    Also, in regards to the personal trainer. I want to stress again that I'm not trying to show off or insult anybody. I'd love to be able to discuss these sorts of things with trainers and get decent input. Unfortunately, many of them are much better at talking than at listening, so it's hard to have a decent discussion.

    I've decided not to bother talking to him at all. It's unlikely that I'll learn much from him, and I'm pretty sure it's going to descend into a "I have a degree and 10 years experience..." thing anyway.

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