Breaking Muscle article against barbell use

[Johnsonville]

I really like kettlebells and have used them off and on for a few years now. However, one thing I noticed which will be obvious to anyone on this site is the stronger I get my barbell lifts the easier the kettlebell workouts are, but it does not work the other way around. For example, I did pavels simple and sinister program and was able to achieve “sinister”, which is the final goal of the program, in like two weeks of ever touching a kettlebell. I also used to be a mason tender and would move 94lb bags of Portland around all day for four years. It had been a good two or three years since I moved a bag, but when I loaded some on my truck the other month I was dumbfounded at how much lighter they seemed. All of this is attributed to barbell training and I have found at least for me barbells are by far the best way to get stronger.

[Barry Charles]

I claim that the load is the force against gravity. Lifting it inefficiently makes it harder, but the load stays the same.

[5hout]

1-2 Months: You increase the number of push ups and free squats you can do.
2-3 Months: You can do easy sets of 50 push ups, your pull up game is on point. Push ups have become cardio, not strength training.
3-4 Months: Pull ups are now cardio. You are searching for different weird variations that increase the difficulty by having you work smaller and smaller muscle groups against more and more of your body weight.
4-8 Months: Almost all body weight exercises are trivially easy and have become cardio, you begin to think "I need some kettle bells/pins/maces". You pay 2-3 dollars per lbs for kettle bells.
8m's-1 year: You've got a full set of kettle bells, and yet on your most compound exercises you are using your larger kettle bells and fear the movements are becoming cardio and not strength increasing.
1 year plus: You wish there was some kind of adjustable kettlebell/pin/mace that could get heavier and heavier to progressively load the movement. You're sick of learning new movements, weird variations. You've probably sustained a few silly injuries over the year, because instead of becoming on expert in 3-5 movement patterns, you're constantly trying to learn new patterns. One day you think it would be great if there was some kind of method to stick kettle bells together, maybe on a stick of some kind.

Actually, the above is lie. What actually happens is 3-4 months in, when push ups (even weird ones) become cardio and you can do sets of 50+ you either give up and go back to not training or it becomes exercise, with no increase in strength over time.

[tompaynter]

What is strength? What is a "progressive bodyweight move"?

I do wonder about the relationship of strength built with a barbell to gymnastic-type moves like the front lever and planche. Strength is force produced against external resistance. These moves obviously require strength so I guess external resistance includes gravity pulling on the body in a disadvantageous position. Training with barbells is the most efficient way to develop strength. Ergo, training with barbells is the most efficient way to achieve the planche or front lever, and someone who has become very strong with barbells should be able to perform those moves.

Is that true? If someone has a 500 lb deadlift, 400 lb squat, etc. (or higher), does that mean he can perform a planche or front lever (allowing for say a few weeks to learn the movement)? If not, why not?

[RBstrength]

Thanks so much for your answers. Really good info. To answer your last question, I've got 6 little kids and work late. Hitting a gym is too costly and takes up too much time. I'll definitely look up the interview of the outdoor gym guy.
One more thing: I get what you're saying about adaptability. But doesn't it also apply to barbells? At some point, one hits a max. Similarly, one hits a max on how many pushups one can do. You then try to break through that max. Why isn't that considered getting stronger and improving one's strength. If today I can do 40 normal pushups, but I push through and make it to 45, why isn't that an increase in strength versus increased endurance, as you say?

[Balrog]

I can share with you my experience. As I have been in a similar situation in the past, it might give you some insight.

During my PhD, I was living in a 400ft² apartment, in a neighbourhood with only commercial gyms with no squat racks in sight and some crossfit gyms far, overcrowded and overpriced. I resorted to train at home with whatever equipment I could fit in my living room. I first bought a telescopic, friction supported, doorframe pull up bar (which can actually securely support half a horse's weight if you know how to use it) to complete the pair of plate loaded dumbbells I already owned, later came a foldable dip stand, then a dip belt. My training therefore consisted of weighted pull ups and dips, push ups, "australian pull ups" using the dip bars, dumbbell overhead presses, dumbbell front squats and clean and presses.
About a year later I decided to buy a kettlebell, 35lb for a start, got myself a 53lb within 8 weeks because it was too light for me (I'm 6'3 and around 200lb). I started incorporating swings (in the 50-200 range once a week), kb snatches (usually 100 with no rest at the end of a workout) kb front squats and eventually kb pistol squats.
About 6 mounth after starting to use a kettlebell, and two weeks after competing the 10000 swing challenge, I visited a commercial gym nearby. I worked my way up to a double at 240lb on the bench press. It felt like I had at least one or two extra reps in but I had no safeties on nor a spotter so I called it a day. I went to join my girlfriend for a stupid Lesmills class, laughed hard at that awfull nonsense then put a bar on the ground and started deadlifting for singles. I worked my way up to 350lb before my terrible form, stiff legs, bar in front of the foot and uncomfortable mixed grip got the better of me. After reading the book, I now believe that a slight knowledge of the lift could probably have added 40 lb on that bar, but it was my first ever deadlift attempt. I did not try to squat because, as stated before, there was no rack in the gym.
Fast forward a year, I defended my thesis, got a new apartment, and a squat rack ! I was delighted to finally be able to test my squat, but not before learning the correct form from you guess where. And I couldn't squat 200 lb. About half of my inexperienced deadlift and about a 100 lbs shy of the "estimate" calculated from my weighted pistol. I had a serious strength imbalance, and wasn't really surprised about it.

Dips and kettlebell presses are going to improve your bench (to a point)
Kettlebell swings, cleans and snatches together with pull ups are going to improve your deadlift (again, to a point).
But nothing will replace the barbell squat. Without heavy weights, you will have a big hole in your strength somewhere.
Not only that, but if and there is plenty of experienced kb lifter who pulled 450lb the first time they ever tried lifting a barbell, no one ever pulled 700lb after only kb training, even after a decade of it. And barbell training will get to a 450lb deadlift twice as fast as kettlebell will.
I love kettlebells. They are a great fun and they do make you stronger, but not as strong and not as fast as a barbell will, not even close.

So my advice is, if you can put a rack somewhere, even in your garden, do it. Take a few mounth of whatever calisthenics, kettlebell or else you want to be good at and run the Starting strength NLP to completion. Get yourself to the point when even a light squat day per week won't do the trick and you have to call yourself an intermediate. Then you may resume whatever you were doing, calisthenics, kettlebells, crossfit or else. Because this is going to be the most productive way to use those few mounths, the fastest way to get actually strong and use that strength to drive your other physical hobby to another level.

Be aware of one thing however, barbells and kettlebells will both make your but and thigh heavier. Putting extra weight in a place where the moment arm is large in relation to your shoulder joint. This is not going to help you perform callisthenics holds like levers, legless planches and human flags. The best gymnasts and callisthenics performers are not leg heavy, they sacrifice actual, "functional" strength in favour of a body that is easy to displace. if you are serious about calisthenics, you may have to hold off from getting really strong and maybe consider yourself happy when you'll hit 3 plates on the big lifts.

[Mark Rippetoe]

If someone has a 500 lb deadlift, 400 lb squat, etc. (or higher), does that mean he can perform a planche or front lever (allowing for say a few weeks to learn the movement)? If not, why not?

The Two-Factor Model of Sports Performance | Mark Rippetoe

[Corrie]

Is that true? If someone has a 500 lb deadlift, 400 lb squat, etc. (or higher), does that mean he can perform a planche or front lever (allowing for say a few weeks to learn the movement)? If not, why not?

I'm no expert but I've been involved in gymnastics for most of my life and my answer is, for most people, yes. A lot of these bodyweight moves are highly technique based and kids in competitive programs will spend a very long time practicing progressive positions that lead them up to the final form. There's a strength component to the progression but these kids can already do 20+ pullups with weight vests on, so they are definitely strong relative to their bodyweight.

[J.D. Shipley]

One more thing: I get what you're saying about adaptability. But doesn't it also apply to barbells? At some point, one hits a max. Similarly, one hits a max on how many pushups one can do. You then try to break through that max. Why isn't that considered getting stronger and improving one's strength. If today I can do 40 normal pushups, but I push through and make it to 45, why isn't that an increase in strength versus increased endurance, as you say?

Read Practical Programming for Strength Training, specifically Ch.'s 4 & 5 as they pertain to your question. In short, "different numbers of reps produce different types of adaptations" (p. 63). The farther along the rep continuum you proceed, the more you drive endurance as an adaptation - not strength.

Let's assume you weigh 200lb and the weight you move in a single push up is 150lb, and you can do 10 reps max after which you cannot possibly bench another. If you get your RM up to 20 push ups, you've increased your 10RM to 20RM. You haven't doubled you 1RM of what you can push up. It may have gone up - slightly - but the effort that you've expended in increasing your reps has made you more efficient at doing push ups at a given weight, not made you stronger such that you drastically increased your strength.

As another example, I'm 40 and have lifted / worked out / exercised since high school. I had never followed a structured program until 3 years ago (except for in my early 20's for about 3 months). I exercised (as compared to trained). I'd go in and bro curl or bench press whatever popped in my head. I even trained for a half-marathon once. I knew the importance of squats so I did them but never got to depth. Deadlifts scared me so I stayed away. I have weighed 225-235 for roughly 15 years. No matter how hard I worked on them (specifically), I could never get my chin ups to total more than 8 in a single set and my drop off was vast, 8, 5, 3, 3, etc. - for years. And I was in shape. I got fed up with not being strong, said "fuck it" to all the cardio and nonsense and found Starting Strength. I'm now 260lb and can bust out a a couple sets of 10 on chins (drop off is still there but it goes from 11, 9, 7 etc. - much better). I got stronger and my chin ups improved even in light of an increase in body weight whereas before I had reached a limit to how much I could chin - because I wasn't getting stronger.

The point that people are trying to make in this thread is that different rep schemes produce different adaptations. You can get stronger by increasing the volume of bodyweight exercises - but only marginally and for very short time (novice effect). You're missing out on real strength gains otherwise.

See Ch. 6 of PPTST as it pertains to the novice effect

[Travis Reid]

That's a really great, helpful post JD. Thanks for taking the time to share it.