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Thread: Breaking Muscle article against barbell use

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    Default Breaking Muscle article against barbell use

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    I've gotten into calisthenics in the past two years, but am drawn to barbell training. Then I read the following article pasted below and question whether I'm better suited to buying kettlebells for home use. Also, if you do think a rack and barbell are better, my only available space is outside. Know anyone with an outdoor setup who lifts and could share photos?
    Thanks!
    An Argument Against the Barbell | Breaking Muscle

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    The article definitely helps. I'm not sure if it completely answers the question whether kettlebells, or even progressive overload through varying bodyweight positions, can still increase strength? The Kavadlo brothers, Hannibal for King, etc. seem to gain strength through progressive bodyweight moves. I suppose the ideal workout is to combine SS with bodyweight moves? Thanks again for your input.

    Also, maybe I need to start another thread, but anyone have photos or recommendations for setting up an outdoor gym? Looking to buy a rack and add some covering over it since I don't have enough space in my house or a garage.

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    The article makes an appeal to the older-was-better mindset, and makes a reference to neuromuscular recruitment of db vs. barbell in 1 lift in 1 reference I didn't look at for details. The real reason for this article starts at the section labeled "A Smarter Business," at which point it becomes a cost benefit analysis of barbells and related equipment compared to something more compact (kettle bells specifically mentioned). The article is very clearly intended to justify a gym that has at most 1-2 power or squat racks and barbells along with racks of dumbbells, kettle bells, and other "functional" equipment based primarily on cost/gym membership.

    I think when the question was posed, "However, when was the last time you saw [someone with a 315 bench] pressing 155-pound dumbbells?" the real question should have been, "How long does it take an average person, benching with a barbell and programming it up each week/workout, to get to a 155lb db press compared to someone using only dumbbells?"

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    What is strength? What is a "progressive bodyweight move"?

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    Progressive bodyweight work relies on using different leverage to increase the load. For instance, slowing down a pullup or one-armed pullups vs. normal pullup, or raising your feet doing a pushup, or pistol squats vs. regular bodyweight squats, or even increasing rep ranges. At least that is what I understand progressive calisthenics as proposed by the Kavadlo brothers to mean.

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    Given that, which is more quantifiable, and which is progressable for a longer period of time, barbell training or calisthenics? Your deadlift, or your pushups.

    And you forgot to define strength.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    What is strength? What is a "progressive bodyweight move"?
    I haven't read the article the OP referenced, but if he's referencing the Kavadlos and Hannibal the King, I'd imagine he's referring to things like levers and planches, or progressively challenging versions of things like pull-ups, push-ups, and dips. Gymnastics type stuff and "progressive calisthenics" was my jam for a while. I know usually when we talk about calisthenics around here, as in military PT for example, we're talking about endless reps of push-ups and sit-ups. I'd say something like a front lever falls a bit closer to "trainable" for strength, but instead of more weight on the bar, the progression involves increasing the duration of a hold and decreasing the leverage little by little. Most people start off with a lever in the tuck position, then a tuck with a flat back, then one leg extended, then a straddle with the knees bent, then a full straddle, and finally the full front lever. Eventually you even see guys repping out horizontal rows in a front lever position, sometimes with added weight.

    It doesn't really fit our definition of strength as the ability to produce force against an external resistance, since the resistance is one's own body weight. I guess with those types of moves it might be something like the ability to produce force to resist gravity's pull on one's own body from positions of increasingly poor leverage. Or, with something like a one-armed chin-up, it's different in that the point is to move the same amount of weight with less muscle mass, instead of using the most muscle mass to move the most possible weight.

    Anyways, I'm a full barbell convert these days. Having pursued some of those moves for a while, I can vouch for barbell gains being much quicker, more predictable, and thus more trainable. Still, I think those bodyweight moves are pretty cool and impressive in their own way for those who have the patience to attain them. Your questions just got me thinking about similarities and differences between definitions of strength and progression in what I used to be into and what I'm into now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBstrength View Post
    Progressive bodyweight work relies on using different leverage to increase the load. For instance, slowing down a pullup or one-armed pullups vs. normal pullup, or raising your feet doing a pushup, or pistol squats vs. regular bodyweight squats, or even increasing rep ranges. At least that is what I understand progressive calisthenics as proposed by the Kavadlo brothers to mean.
    I see why you could call these types of progression as they are all harder, but these are very different from barbell weight progression.

    Slowing down a pullup = same (or lesser) force for a longer time
    One armed pullup = doubling force in one jump
    Raising feet in push = decreasing pec and increasing delt involvement i.e. using weaker muscle groups
    Increasing rep ranges = same force but more reps.

    If you agree that strength is the amount of force that can be applied against an external resistance, then progressively loading a barbell a couple of pounds each time you lift is the most direct way to train strength. While barbells may have a lesser variety of exercises that you can use them for this is actually a good thing as it makes you focus on progression, and barbells can be loaded in very fine increments of weight over a very wide range of weights dumbells/kettlebells/indian clubs cant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBstrength View Post
    I'm not sure if it completely answers the question whether kettlebells, or even progressive overload through varying bodyweight positions, can still increase strength? The Kavadlo brothers, Hannibal for King, etc. seem to gain strength through progressive bodyweight moves.
    Did you not read the article? Kettlebells CAN increase strength but only up to a certain point. After your body has adapted to the stress of the KB, it will no longer work. “Ok so get a heavier KB.” Fair enough, then that stops working. Are you going to increase until you get a 300lb KB? 400lb? “Well I can increase the volume”. Fair enough, do 5 KB swings with a 55lb KB, then 8, then 12, then 15. Go up to a 70lb KB and repeat the process. “Yep that’s right”. Do you not realized you’ve periodized your training in a way that prioritizes endurance instead of strength. Which is your priority?

    Bodyweight exercises...same concept. You can only load the movement to the extent that your bodyweight allows. If you want to get stronger, the weight has to go up. Are you going to gain sufficient weight to make this happen? “Up to a point, then I’ll hang weight on a belt”. Well it’s no longer a bodyweight exercise, then, is it. “I can increase the volume here too.” Did you not just read the paragraph above?

    “I can vary my body's position”. You mean involve other muscles in the movement? Ok, sounds like a plan. What will you do when your body adapts to the stress of your current body weight? “Um, increase the volume?” You’re not listening are you?

    Strength cannot be developed by KB or bodyweight movements as efficiently as can be done with barbells because at some point, the weight cannot go up any more (i.e. the stress imposed no longer increases) and the body stops responding (because it's already adapted to the stress being imposed). If strength is force produced against an external resistance, the primary metric of an efficacy of a training modality is the quantity of that external resistance one can successfully produce force against. Barbells allow a person to incrementally load normal human movement in a way that will keep progress going for years if programmed correctly.

    ”But this article says KBs are better”. Fuck I give up...

    Quote Originally Posted by RBstrength View Post
    I suppose the ideal workout is to combine SS with bodyweight moves?
    Not at first. After a certain point in barbell training, it may be desirable to add chin ups or dips when additional stress is needed to drive further adaptation. KBs too.

    Quote Originally Posted by RBstrength View Post
    Also, maybe I need to start another thread, but anyone have photos or recommendations for setting up an outdoor gym? Looking to buy a rack and add some covering over it since I don't have enough space in my house or a garage.
    Look through Barbell Logic’s archive’s. Matt and Scott interview a client of theirs that built a concrete pad in his back yard, put a squat rack on it and trains in the weather - rain, snow, etc.

    If you don’t have a garage or space in your house, why can’t you just join a globo gym?

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