Getting that last rep

[Satch12879]

A lifter who had plateaued because he had become adapted to a level and type of stress found resumption in progress once the bolus of stress was modified. Also, with recovery issues.

We never talk about that stuff around here, do we? I mean, it's just 5 more pounds every time, right?

[Yngvi]

Yes guys, that's why I said unless e.g. your technique was crap during the warmup. I know full well that you can sometimes come to the gym well rested and fully motivated and then have a terrible training session. Other times you might come to the gym with little sleep and everything being shit that day and you suddenly PR. These things will still happen despite the usage of RPE and having to judge your warmup sets. You do have to make some adjustments in your warmup sets/reps/intensities though of course so that it's more precise to judge.

Regarding my numbers and previous training... to summarize I've been doing SS, TM, 531, TM 4 day split, HLM and back to TM 4 day split with rotating rep ranges, doing Dynamic Effort stuff etc. over a time span of I think around 6 years or so. I started at a bw of 60-61kg (which up to that point has still been my highest bw until I started lifting in my 20s) at 1.81m and barely benching around 30kg. Considering this, my numbers will be a joke to many around here but it's about the progress not the absolute numbers. And yeah I was a prime candidate for GOMAD, which I've done and which helped me reach around 92kg of bw, though with significant fat gain too tbh. Since then my bw has stayed in the ballpark of 83-88kg - still light for my height but I should mention again that I have a very slim build (shoulders, hips, wrists, ankles, etc.) so I won't be able to pack on much more weight as my arms already stand off to the sides, touching my lats and my thighs rub terribly (I don't even want to know how I look walking around). I also get sleep apnea over around 87-88kg.

My highest numbers around 2 years ago
SQ: 175kg with a significant grind
BP: 125kg
DL: 190kg (short arms, if you're wondering why the small SQ/DL ratio)
P: 90kg

I repeated the program and lost a bit of weight during the last few weeks and had 85kg towards the end:
SQ: 180kg with ease
BP: went for and missed 130kg (but did 125kg submax in training the weeks before... I think that was most affected by the weight loss)
DL: targeted 195kg which went up with ease so decided to go after my "life time goal" of 200kg which also wasn't much of a grind surprisingly... I remember the 190kg 2 years ago being much more of a struggle

Let's put this in perspective: As an intermediate, after a 12 week program, you were able to add 10lbs to your squat and 20lbs to your DL. You should have been able to do that after about two weeks.

You would have been better off with advanced programming and linear periodization than RPE. Same +10lb result with a shorter 6 or 8 week cycle and less programming complexity to screw up.

Ideally, you would have been able to figure out how to do intermediate programming, but you were unable to.

[Will Morris]

Yes guys, that's why I said unless e.g. your technique was crap during the warmup. I know full well that you can sometimes come to the gym well rested and fully motivated and then have a terrible training session. Other times you might come to the gym with little sleep and everything being shit that day and you suddenly PR. These things will still happen despite the usage of RPE and having to judge your warmup sets. You do have to make some adjustments in your warmup sets/reps/intensities though of course so that it's more precise to judge.

Regarding my numbers and previous training... to summarize I've been doing SS, TM, 531, TM 4 day split, HLM and back to TM 4 day split with rotating rep ranges, doing Dynamic Effort stuff etc. over a time span of I think around 6 years or so. I started at a bw of 60-61kg (which up to that point has still been my highest bw until I started lifting in my 20s) at 1.81m and barely benching around 30kg. Considering this, my numbers will be a joke to many around here but it's about the progress not the absolute numbers. And yeah I was a prime candidate for GOMAD, which I've done and which helped me reach around 92kg of bw, though with significant fat gain too tbh. Since then my bw has stayed in the ballpark of 83-88kg - still light for my height but I should mention again that I have a very slim build (shoulders, hips, wrists, ankles, etc.) so I won't be able to pack on much more weight as my arms already stand off to the sides, touching my lats and my thighs rub terribly (I don't even want to know how I look walking around). I also get sleep apnea over around 87-88kg.

My highest numbers around 2 years ago (where I pretty much plateaued around for about 2 years as well I should mention) and a bw of around 87kg before I started getting some SI issues and couldn't go that heavy anymore:
SQ: 175kg with a significant grind
BP: 125kg
DL: 190kg (short arms, if you're wondering why the small SQ/DL ratio)
P: 90kg

About 1 year ago my SI issues started dissipating and I could start going heavier again where I reached those numbers with TM:
SQ: 150kg 3RM
BP: 110kg 3RM
DL: 162.5kg 3RM

Then I went on a 12 week program incorporating RPE and reached those numbers at 87kg:
SQ: targeted 170kg but they were so easy that I did 175kg afterwards easily as well
BP: 125kg with ease
DL: 185kg with ease

I repeated the program and lost a bit of weight during the last few weeks and had 85kg towards the end:
SQ: 180kg with ease
BP: went for and missed 130kg (but did 125kg submax in training the weeks before... I think that was most affected by the weight loss)
DL: targeted 195kg which went up with ease so decided to go after my "life time goal" of 200kg which also wasn't much of a grind surprisingly... I remember the 190kg 2 years ago being much more of a struggle

So why am I convinced that it works? My training has been way less fatiguing, I lost a bit of weight but I think that I still put on a bit more muscle mass than I did over the previous years as intermediate trainee. I matched my previous numbers with ease during the first round which I've been struggling with for years and where I had some pain now and then and finally improved on them during the second round, setting new PRs for the first time in about 2 years or more. And here's the fun part... doing RPE8 singles regularly combined with non-grindy volume work was way more enjoyable as well as effective than not doing the submax singles but doing heavy ass volume work that lets you sit on the bench for 10-12 minutes all fucked up.

I do understand what you are saying, but it is hard to tease out your actual argument when 90% of your post is comprised of all the reasons why you aren't stronger than you are.

Granted, it is n=1, but I train much heavier, with more intensity than you.....I have horrific body proportions for strength, as Rip would likely be willing to confirm. I weigh less (78kg), am significantly stronger (215kg squat, 169kg bench, 220kg deadlift), am likely much leaner than you, and I am making faster progress than you are. I don't have the aesthetic complaints you seem to have with being a bit bigger. The important thing here is this: I like training the way I train. You like training the way you train. Keep it that way. If training this way improves your consistency, by all means, train this way. If it brings joy to your life to train like this, you'd be a fool not to train this way. But, when you use yourself as a n=1 case study to prove your point, your argument only goes so far as the first person who has a better outcome than you.

[Ivan Stepic]

In my eyes, the whole RPE movement is just a giant distraction for lots and lots of lifters. The only ones who got RPE working for them are hard workers by nature. And because they're hard workers by nature they would get stronger anyways. The inventor of the thing insists on planning and expecting addition of weight to the bar along with overall aggressive approach to training.

All the talk about better "fatigue management" makes people think that they can outsmart hard training with "intelligent" programming. Training is hard by definition and training is not fun most of the times. Bowling is fun.

The RPE movement demonized training to failure or missing reps to the point that now everyone thinks they will get diabetes if they miss a rep. The funny thing is that every system that attempts to measure something needs calibration, but people who use RPE apparently don't.

But I agree with Satch. When program stops working, we should just add 5 pounds and drink 2 gallons of milk. We should also frequently fail reps and rest 25 minutes between sets. When we get stuck again, just add 5 more pounds. Fuck RPE training.

[deeprooted]

Let's put this in perspective: As an intermediate, after a 12 week program, you were able to add 10lbs to your squat and 20lbs to your DL. You should have been able to do that after about two weeks.

You would have been better off with advanced programming and linear periodization than RPE. Same +10lb result with a shorter 6 or 8 week cycle and less programming complexity to screw up.

Ideally, you would have been able to figure out how to do intermediate programming, but you were unable to.

Yes but no... after the 6 years or so of training my numbers generally only went up little by little when I've been gaining weight (and going down when cutting). At this stage adding those numbers (and it was also the 2nd run where I added 11lb to the squat and 33lb to the DL with some lb left on the table and a weight loss of 9lb too) was quite a nice progress for me.

I do understand what you are saying, but it is hard to tease out your actual argument when 90% of your post is comprised of all the reasons why you aren't stronger than you are.

Granted, it is n=1, but I train much heavier, with more intensity than you.....I have horrific body proportions for strength, as Rip would likely be willing to confirm. I weigh less (78kg), am significantly stronger (215kg squat, 169kg bench, 220kg deadlift), am likely much leaner than you, and I am making faster progress than you are. I don't have the aesthetic complaints you seem to have with being a bit bigger. The important thing here is this: I like training the way I train. You like training the way you train. Keep it that way. If training this way improves your consistency, by all means, train this way. If it brings joy to your life to train like this, you'd be a fool not to train this way. But, when you use yourself as a n=1 case study to prove your point, your argument only goes so far as the first person who has a better outcome than you.

Those are great numbers! How tall are you?

Anyway, it's lame to blame everything on genetics but I genuinely consider myself being at the low end of the scale when it comes to strength. Not only have I been a skinny 60kg at 1.81m up to my twenties, I had autoimmune/thyroid issues since my teens... heck where I live every guy has to do a screening test at I think 17yr old for joining the basic military service. They do basic health checks, strength tests and some cardio tests. From those hundred or so kids there were exactly me and one fatty that had to do additional tests. I turned out being borderline unfit for service because I was physically that weak.

My gf is certainly a better example. She's been training for around 2yr now... went with her through SS, taught her the lifts, progressed to the intermediate TM where she reached a respectable squat of 115kg, 65kg bench and a 120kg deadlift at a bodyweight of 60kg. She started dreading the training though, many times wanting to quit and she hasn't hit those numbers in some months.

She went on the same 12 week program after I made some decent progress during the first run and she generally stopped complaining during training so much, even though the volume work (which she started to hate the most) has become more, especially for the deadlift. During the last weeks then she did the 115kg squat as a submax single. To not scare her I said I planned her to do 120kg at the end of the program but actually planned on 122.5 - 125kg being quite realistic. On that day she did the 120kg and they went up like they were a joke so we decided right away to go up to 127.5kg. Those weren't much of a big deal either so 130kg had to be done too, there was just no way around. 75kg on the bench followed later. And to finish it off we planned for a 130kg deadlift which also turned out so easy that she went for either 135 or 137.5 afterwards. As those weren't much of a struggle either we pushed her to do the 6 wheels which went up easily too. So 130/75/140kg for a 60kg girl. I just have to get her to actually compete now.

The point being though I'm sure she could have reached those numbers without implementing RPE. But I'm also certain that it helped her getting through the training sessions without excessive fatigue and dreading the training, despite the increased volume - which I think was really the crucial parameter here.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yes but no... after the 6 years or so of training my numbers generally only went up little by little when I've been gaining weight (and going down when cutting). At this stage adding those numbers (and it was also the 2nd run where I added 11lb to the squat and 33lb to the DL with some lb left on the table and a weight loss of 9lb too) was quite a nice progress for me.

Sounds like RPE has been very good to you. Enjoy your training.

[Mark E. Hurling]

In my eyes, the whole RPE movement is just a giant distraction for lots and lots of lifters.

See also: Muscle Confusion. As promulgated from the rubric of the three (er, make that two) stone tablets of The Weider Principles. As handed down from the Elder Gods.

[Diddyin94]

Correct attitude. RPE is complete bullshit for everybody. How long are you resting between sets?

How much non starting-strength published content do you consume? How many RPE based training cycles have you programmed for your clients? When was the last time you went to a gym that was not for a seminar or WFAC?

I don’t understand where the feedback mechanism that would present new evidence would happen for you?

[Mark Rippetoe]

There's a lot of shit you don't understand.

[David Oliver]

So, I work out on my own; but every once in awhile my neighbor Lee Labrada or his son Hunter comes down and yells at me. And somehow ... I do more. I don't know why, I just do. I think we were all born to compete. I'm a shlub but I enjoy trying. It's better than dying. Quite the opposite, actually. Like livin', I suppose.