Starting Strength Radio: Robert Santana RD SSC

[Mark Rippetoe]

Not to belabor or hijack the thread, but if anyone has any content or information they recommend on drastically increasing protein intake for individuals unable to leaverage whey (and preferably cheaply) I would be very appreciative. Steak five times a day may not go over well until the kids are older and the wife can return to her career, and I have not found a tremendous amount of... quality... work on the subject.

Eggs are pretty cheap now.

[stef]

I think you are talking about HR response to exercise. Yes, at 50-90% HRmax, there is a more or less linear relationship between HR and VO2. And I know that during anaerobic exercise you can be working at 150%+ VO2max capacity. I am simply asking how you can get your heart rate above your maximum heart rate.

Did you miss the previous answers that covered this in different ways?

I would expect that even a directly-measured "max" heart rate would vary day to day and be well under "max" heart rate measured in an actual no-shit situation.

[Robert Santana]

Not to belabor or hijack the thread, but if anyone has any content or information they recommend on drastically increasing protein intake for individuals unable to leaverage whey (and preferably cheaply) I would be very appreciative. Steak five times a day may not go over well until the kids are older and the wife can return to her career, and I have not found a tremendous amount of... quality... work on the subject.

Can they tolerate milk? Doesn't get as cheap as that. Jerky works too, albeit not cheap. Egg whites from Costco are cheap as well. You can get 6, 12 oz cartons for under $10.

My goal is to get stronger while minimizing additional fat gain, strength is the current priority. I'm 42. I was curious about how to eat that much protein. I prefer animal / natural sources and like beef the most, but don't need all that fat in my diet and was wondering about protein sources (more lean meat?) and meal spacing. I'm showing OK progress on SS so far and have been gaining muscle and fat and increasing linearly on the program just eating more (protein and carbs) and supplementing whey after workouts and mid-day and casein (before bed). 300 grams is about 100 grams more than I eat on average right now.

I'd say if you are getting ~150-200 grams from animal protein, you should be able to get another 50-100 grams without much effort from your plant sources to get you to a total of 300 g per day. To be clear, 300 grams is a surplus of protein and you are unlikely using all of that to build muscle but its not harmful to go over provided no diagnosis of Chronic Kidney Disease (CKD).

I think you are talking about HR response to exercise. Yes, at 50-90% HRmax, there is a more or less linear relationship between HR and VO2. And I know that during anaerobic exercise you can be working at 150%+ VO2max capacity. I am simply asking how you can get your heart rate above your maximum heart rate.

By doing a VO2max test.

[David Kirkham]

Thanks Rip and Robert for the free educational video.

I'm interested in Robert's / David Kirkham's thoughts on the preferential sources of the 300 gram diet.

If:
8 oz top sirloin = ~60 grams protein
8 oz chicken breast = 72 grams protein
4 large eggs = 24 grams protein
8 oz Salmon = ~ 60 grams protein
Double scoop whey protein shake = ~ 50 grams protein
Double scoop Casein Protein Shake = ~50 grams protein
Total = 316 grams. Ingestion rate of one source every 3 hours (18 hours)..i.e. from 7 AM to 10PM?

OK. First here I have to say I am not Robert Santana and if you follow ANYTHING that I have posted you are likely to kill yourself (in more ways than one) or worse. Doug and I just do our "experiments" on ourselves. Please keep in mind my massage therapist says I am the only client he has ever had that can get tendinitis swimming. But then again, Doug and I swam 1000 meters last night in 40 minutes...so we are probably in the asymptote of the curve on sanity--no surprise.

From my--admittedly asymptotic point of view--that is a lot of fat up there in that post. Santana said it best, "What are your goals?" If you are a lard ass and trying to lose weight and minimize the losses of your hard fought gains then you probably have to cut out the sirloin, eggs, and salmon. Sorry man, but the fat has to go. If you need to gain a few pounds because you are a 6'5 185 pound bean pole...well, maybe you need to dump half and half in your coffee and protein shakes. Just don't let me see you doing it or I will steal your coffee whether you are guarding it or not.

Glad you liked the article David. I’d love to visit sometime, enjoyed your stories at the WFAC and would very much like to see your creations.

What I don’t see is the problem with 300 g protein for a male who is free of chronic kidney disease? What is the counterclaim again? That humans don’t need 300 g protein? Ok for what purpose? Don’t need it for what? This is a rather vague argument because there is nothing to suggest an issue with eating 1200 protein calories per day for a male free of CKD.

I know--I really wonder why so many people get so worked up about this???

HRmax is nonsense

I thought I was making a joke when it is pretty clear that if I can exercise above 100% HRmax, then there is something wrong with the damn chart and it probably isn't HRmax. It's some number some cardiologist decided for some reason to apply to everyone. Think about it...who sees cardiologists??? Pretty much people with serious problems. Maybe their charts, graphs, assumptions, and research may not apply very well to people who actually pray to Jesus because 400 pounds is on their back.

Also covered in my Calorie Needs for Barbell Training article.

I think we should all read this EXCELLENT article again by Robert Santana.

I think you are talking about HR response to exercise. Yes, at 50-90% HRmax, there is a more or less linear relationship between HR and VO2. And I know that during anaerobic exercise you can be working at 150%+ VO2max capacity. I am simply asking how you can get your heart rate above your maximum heart rate.

Depends on what you mean by "max HR." If by that you mean 220 minus your age, it's wrong. I worked well above that for the 2 years I did hard conditioning.

First, it was a joke of sorts. Second, no one here knows what their true HRmax is. When is the last time you were chased by a lion? Again cardiologists pull a number out of (probably from the proctologist's office) and then throw it on a paper for peer review--hoping no one finds out where it really came from. Remember, most research can't be replicated. That's a pretty damning statistic.

When the cardiologist ordered the treadmill stress test I asked him what it involved. He replied, "They put you on a treadmill and gradually increase the speed and the incline until you tap out." My wife just looked at him and said, "You don't understand David...he won't tap out." The cardiologist just kinda rolled his eyes (NOTE: I love my cardiologist and I think he does his best--hey, he saved my life with that stent he placed. Those guys just don't work much on guys who are dedicated lifters.) Even Rip told me I'd max out the test. I wasn't really sure what was going to happen.

So...when the big torture day rolled around I took off my shirt and they put leads all over me and placed an IV for the radioactive tracer. Their instructions were simple, "Tell us when you want to stop or if anything hurts." I just kept going...and going...and going. Finally, at the end of the stress test I was at max incline and the damn computer was flashing red lights at the techs because my heart rate was 155. My "HRmax" is 167. So I was chugging along at 92% HRmax with the computer flashing red lights and the techs were staring at me with wide eyes. They kept asking me, "Do you feel OK? Are you OK? Are you in pain?" I just answered, "This ain't nothing compared to a 405 squat. I NEVER run so my damn hamstrings hurt, but I'll keep going if you need me to." Finally the tech in the back said, "We better shut him down" and so they did. I'm pretty sure they thought I was...different.

My goal is to get stronger while minimizing additional fat gain, strength is the current priority. I'm 42. I was curious about how to eat that much protein. I prefer animal / natural sources and like beef the most, but don't need all that fat in my diet and was wondering about protein sources (more lean meat?) and meal spacing. I'm showing OK progress on SS so far and have been gaining muscle and fat and increasing linearly on the program just eating more (protein and carbs) and supplementing whey after workouts and mid-day and casein (before bed). 300 grams is about 100 grams more than I eat on average right now.

According to my "pig farmer" buddy protein sits on a descending scale of bio-availability:
--white fish
--fish
--chicken
--eggs
--pork
--dairy
--beef
--plants
I'd try more protein and less fat. But...it may kill you.

Not to belabor or hijack the thread, but if anyone has any content or information they recommend on drastically increasing protein intake for individuals unable to leaverage whey (and preferably cheaply) I would be very appreciative. Steak five times a day may not go over well until the kids are older and the wife can return to her career, and I have not found a tremendous amount of... quality... work on the subject.

Rip is right--egg whites are really good.

And this leads into the most important advice I can give anyone on a diet...DON'T BE A DICK!

Yesterday I said I would be 223 today. I wasn't. I was 224. Why? My 19 year old daughter made me dinner and I went home and indulged and I loved every single bite. Period...no apology. My 223 goal isn't going to get in the way of me thanking my daughter for making me dinner and eating it with her. I'll can be 223 tomorrow and it's OK. Don't let your diet get in the way of life. If something comes up, family dinner, birthday, lunch with a client--I eat. I don't pig out, but I eat with them and enjoy my time. There is always tomorrow to pick up where you left off and start again. You need the break anyway. 24/7 dieting is a drag so keep your spirits and family and friend connections in tact and don't be that dick that tells everyone you are on a diet. Everyone else wants to be on a diet too but they don't want you rubbing their nose in what they all know they should be doing.

Lift is too short to be unhappy.

David

[Cheesepuff]

BEST THREAD EVER!!!

I understand the haters, who prefer an easier / more comfortable path. Been there myself but tried to keep my mouth shut.

What I don't understand is the generosity and courage of Rip, Robert and David. Sharing the truth as they know it in spite of the haters it will attract.

We clearly need to hear more about what the "Pig farmer" says. He had "skin in the game" and uncommon control of the variables. I'll bet more of his notions are gold as well.

Thank you!

[David A. Rowe]

Eggs are pretty cheap now.

Roger. Looks to be that way. Thank you.

Can they tolerate milk? Doesn't get as cheap as that. Jerky works too, albeit not cheap. Egg whites from Costco are cheap as well. You can get 6, 12 oz cartons for under $10.

I am dairy intolerant, and my children are right now (both under 2 years, so it may change). My wife is also mildly intolerant, so milk is out of the picture (unfortunately). Thanks for the heads-up about Costco. The other brands we were looking into are ridiculously expensive for price/g or price/serving. Thank you.

Rip is right--egg whites are really good.

And this leads into the most important advice I can give anyone on a diet...DON'T BE A DICK!

Yesterday I said I would be 223 today. I wasn't. I was 224. Why? My 19 year old daughter made me dinner and I went home and indulged and I loved every single bite. Period...no apology. My 223 goal isn't going to get in the way of me thanking my daughter for making me dinner and eating it with her. I'll can be 223 tomorrow and it's OK. Don't let your diet get in the way of life. If something comes up, family dinner, birthday, lunch with a client--I eat. I don't pig out, but I eat with them and enjoy my time. There is always tomorrow to pick up where you left off and start again. You need the break anyway. 24/7 dieting is a drag so keep your spirits and family and friend connections in tact and don't be that dick that tells everyone you are on a diet. Everyone else wants to be on a diet too but they don't want you rubbing their nose in what they all know they should be doing.

Lift is too short to be unhappy.

David

I agree. I actually did not discover for a long time that I am very dairy intolerant, mildly glutent intolerant, and I have malabsorption issues with regards to refined sugars (likely due to a lack of the enzyme to breack sucrose into glucose/fructose). I have something akin to "Gulf War Syndrome" with regards to testoterone, fatigue, etc. with no apparent pathology. I was treated for every step of the endocrine chain and had labs run over years. The only thing that has helped has been a dietary adjustment, and it has had a tremendously positive net effect on many things. Unfortunately, it does reduce my access to what I can eat on a day-to-day basis. I do cheat, though. Who wants to die healthy and miserable? It's just that I have real ramifications when I do -- so I make sure the cheating is well worth the price to be paid.

[Robert Santana]

DON'T BE A DICK!

Valuable advice here. Progress with diet is nonlinear unless you are a bodybuilder and/or a dick (in the context David is referencing). Food is an important part of social interaction so expecting 12 consecutive weeks of perfect compliance and weight loss is setting yourself up for failure unless you are completely anti-social or have a fast metabolic rate (in which case you wouldn't be here asking for advice).

[jamesfromphoenix]

In all my years perusing comments here. David K’s here is probably my all time favorite!
What a response!

[David Kirkham]

BEST THREAD EVER!!!

I understand the haters, who prefer an easier / more comfortable path. Been there myself but tried to keep my mouth shut.

What I don't understand is the generosity and courage of Rip, Robert and David. Sharing the truth as they know it in spite of the haters it will attract.

We clearly need to hear more about what the "Pig farmer" says. He had "skin in the game" and uncommon control of the variables. I'll bet more of his notions are gold as well.

Thank you!

Once you get to a certain age and have had a few unfortunate experiences you grow a pretty thick skin. Young guys know everything (just ask them--they'll tell you so). Haters gonna hate--it's what they do. If there is any one, common thread in all my talks with Rip, or any successful businessman, it is, "The more you learn, the less you know."

Roger. Looks to be that way. Thank you.
I am dairy intolerant, and my children are right now (both under 2 years, so it may change). My wife is also mildly intolerant, so milk is out of the picture (unfortunately). Thanks for the heads-up about Costco. The other brands we were looking into are ridiculously expensive for price/g or price/serving. Thank you.

I agree. I actually did not discover for a long time that I am very dairy intolerant, mildly glutent intolerant, and I have malabsorption issues with regards to refined sugars (likely due to a lack of the enzyme to breack sucrose into glucose/fructose). I have something akin to "Gulf War Syndrome" with regards to testoterone, fatigue, etc. with no apparent pathology. I was treated for every step of the endocrine chain and had labs run over years. The only thing that has helped has been a dietary adjustment, and it has had a tremendously positive net effect on many things. Unfortunately, it does reduce my access to what I can eat on a day-to-day basis. I do cheat, though. Who wants to die healthy and miserable? It's just that I have real ramifications when I do -- so I make sure the cheating is well worth the price to be paid.

Another constant in the universe is we all have our issues. You just have to figure a way out around them. I made squat handles when my shoulder wouldn't let me squat. Other guys and gals do other, absolutely amazing, things. I once saw a transmission seal made out of thread in Peru. They were literally dirt poor, but they got that car running with minimal leaks. I've seen gas cans from milk jugs (sitting right between me and the taxi driver) and any number of interesting things in Africa. Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. Figure it out and post what you learned. Who knows who it will help...maybe me.

Valuable advice here. Progress with diet is nonlinear unless you are a bodybuilder and/or a dick (in the context David is referencing). Food is an important part of social interaction so expecting 12 consecutive weeks of perfect compliance and weight loss is setting yourself up for failure unless you are completely anti-social or have a fast metabolic rate (in which case you wouldn't be here asking for advice).

12 consecutive weeks of "perfect compliance" is pretty much my definition, self reporting (lying), or the guy is seriously into pain.